Sunday, June 24, 2012

The Golden Rule

(A typical caning scene at Lupus Pictures...)

In the discussion on my last post about Football and Masochism some very interesting topics came up which made me think again about tolerance and ethical behaviour. Both Ludwig and I subscribe to the view that there are indeed universal moral values which, as Ludwig explained, "can be derived from human reason according to our best understanding of our individual and collective needs. What that means in practice is another long, complex discussion, but in my view, the so-called 'golden rule' is a good starting point and will take us quite a long way: one should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. And one should not treat others as one would not like others to treat oneself. Many philosophers have developed variations of this theme in different time periods and cultures, from Confucius to Kant."

Now, the golden rule might be a bit misguiding at first. For example, it doesn't mean that I can slap unsuspecting people on their bottoms just because I would find it funny if someone did that to me. One has to transfer the moral issue to a more abstract level at first. The question isn't: Am I okay with a stranger playfully slapping my bottom and can I therefore do the same to others? The question is: Am I okay with a stranger doing something to me that I don't expect, haven't agreed upon beforehand and maybe don't like, just because that person likes it? I guess the answer is simple.

Therefore my guideline for tolerance is the following: In my view, open-mindedness means accepting others as they are and letting them live as they want to, as long as their actions don't violate the health or freedom of others. If the latter is the case, limits have to be set and compromises have to be made. The problem: In my opinion many people aren't capable of distinguishing between personal preferences / limits / tastes and ethical values. Those people often use the former as a base for moral judgements, stating that those who don't have similar preferences or who do things that are beyond their personal limits are behaving immorally. Today I have come across a discussion of an age-old topic on Chross's message board which sadly again demonstrates this issue.

(...and the resulting marks.)

The original commenter mglfrps writes: "I enjoy spanking art, stories, photos very much. They are a big part of my erotic fantasies. However, I like them to be cute, naughty, clever, funny, sexy like the cartoon art of spankings in the Humorama magazines of the '50's and the Betty Page spanking images of that era, too. I detest the Lupus type of spanking images. I hate to see pretty girls' pretty bottoms covered with welts and perhaps about to bleed out. I may have some grudges against some women but I believe if you enjoy seeing the deep purple bruises and the blood red caning marks, you should seek psychiatric help very soon and do not act out on those fantasies, please." He later adds: "The most important point I am trying to make i [sic] that there is a broad spectrum in the world of BDSM. The most violent end of the spectrum scares me about who is enjoying depictions of rape and real torture and whether or not this is an outlet for those feelings or a stirring up of those feelings that will lead to real world horrors."

In another comment woronov adds: "I wholly share mglfrps tastes. In fact, I could have written his first post myself. Was mglfrps unduly judgemental? I'm not so sure. I was reminded of a joke by Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle: 'Yesterday I saw a YouTube video of Saddam Hussein's execution. Is there ANYTHING on the Internet I won't masturbate to?' Let's say you are turned on by the idea of killing and eating someone. Could you find a willing partner? Yes, you can. In fact, it happened (in Germany, as I recall) a few years ago. Both partners were consenting adults, but I can't help wondering whether, as he was being killed, the victim had second thoughts. Yes, maybe the idea of being eaten was extremely arousing for him, but at some point he must have realised that being alive is an essential part of enjoyment. People who desire to inflict extreme pain on someone else, whether that someone consents or not, could be in need of treatment."

I don't have to tell you that Ludwig is into severe canings and that he has worked as a top for Lupus Pictures as well as for Mood Pictures. He has also done similarly severe scenes as a bottom. I also don't have to tell you that I have been struggling with severe scenes and sometimes still do. For example, I would probably rather not watch the Lupus Pictures film from which I have taken the pictures for this post. But, at the same time, I have done two canings of the same severity myself, one as a private experiment in order to develop an informed opinion about the subject and one for Pandora's site Dreams of Spanking. Ludwig and I can both testify that there is no permanent harm done by those severe canings. That said, the scenes are definitely challenging, as I experienced during my first try. But if the participants know their personal limits, their possible reactions and how to respond to them, it is very safe and it can also be a very fulfilling experience. I haven't topped Ludwig for a similarly severe scene, yet, but we have already agreed on such a scene in the future.

(The scientific proof - severe BDSM play causes violence.)

Unfortunately, both commenters mentioned above obviously haven't taken the time to learn more about the topic which they are discussing and to develop an informed opinion. Let's try to put emotional reactions on the topic aside for a moment and see how far the golden rule takes us when looking at some of their arguments.

The first main argument against severe scenes which both commenters give is that severe marks don't suit their personal taste and that they don't want to see any stuff like that. So, the basic question is: Do I want to live in a world where it is a basic moral rule that people are prohibited to do and publish anything that doesn't suit another person's personal taste and makes that person feel uncomfortable? I guess I don't even have to give a serious answer to that question. Even if one uses the term "the majority" instead of "another person", that only means that the tastes of minorities would be oppressed by the taste of the majority. And, at least in many countries, that means goodbye kink (yes, even nice pink bottoms), homosexuality and so on. You get the same result when applying my rule for open-mindedness and ask: Does the depiction of severe canings between consenting adults violate the health or freedom of others? Again the answer is no, because one can easily turn away if one doesn't want to look at the pictures or watch the videos.

The second main argument is that both, the tops who dish out severe canings like that and the bottoms who consent to taking the canings, are mentally ill. The basic accusation against the tops: They are women-haters (of course, as so often, only the M/F constellation is considered here) who want to hurt and torture women and might even proceed to non-consensual rape and torture if severe forms of BDSM play aren't prohibited and if they don't seek out mental help. Okay, let me swallow my anger concerning the horrible accusations made against people like Ludwig and me for a moment, and let's analyse that argument rationally.

Fact is that there is a psychological difference between pathological sadism (the one that some psychopaths are diagnosed with) and affectionate erotic sadism (the one that is involved in kinky play) which I explained in detail in this post. The latter isn't considered to be a mental illness. Personal preferences and the severity of one's play don't influence that medical classification, as long as the play is consensual and no permanent bodily harm is done. As for the aspect of being women-haters or men-haters: Ludwig definitely isn't one. Many others whom I have met personally aren't (I recommend reading Ludwig's behind-the-scenes report from his Lupus Pictures shoot). And I am not a men-hater, either, despite the fact that I can enjoy seeing male spankees at the receiving end of severe canings. I can't rule out the possibility that some pathological sadists watch kinky porn, too, like paedophiles who look at boyscout brochures, but that doesn't mean that kinky people who do that kind of scenes or producers who film them are dangerous or doing anything morally objectionable.

(Picture of a typical women-hater and his helpless victims.)

The third part of the argument, which is that the depiction of violence leads to violent behaviour, was disproved in different studies as well. And non-consensual fantasies don't equal the wish to make any real non-consensual experiences, either, as Pandora wonderfully explained in her post about women's rape fantasies. So, the basic question here is: Do I want to live in a world where the prohibition of certain things and the classification of people as being mentally ill and dangerous is based on emotional judgements of people, even if they contradict the results of scientific studies? For me, the answer is again clear.
The general tactics and the arguments in the thread mentioned above are typical for the kinds of discussions in which people try to sell their personal preferences as a valid base for moral judgements: Totally inappropriate comparisons (severe canings and cannibalism), attempts to raise fear with completely unproven assumptions (people could become violent because of severe BDSM porn), the presentation of totally wrong conclusions (Lupus could be censored because of their violent movies, so why not prevent that by self-censorship) and pseudo sympathy (hey, in a way I am mentally ill as well, I don't judge you for having those desires, you just have to suppress them) plus pseudo solutions (why not fake severe canings, then everyone would be happy).

By the way, the golden rule isn't a base for moral arbitrariness. Quite the contrary, it can lead to very strict moral statements as well if necessary. Another issue briefly mentioned in the thread was spanking children. In his comment fatherjim states: "Look, I don't like ANYONE hitting kids at all! PERIOD! That said, I will not call those who do sick and in need of a psychiatrist lest they escalate and possibly kill their child!" When it comes to spanking children, that certainly isn't a consensual activity. And scientific studies have proven that spanking children can cause permanent mental harm and that other ways of raising children can be just as effective without involving the same risk. So, the question here is: Do I want to live in a world where defenceless minors are subjected to painful experiences that can cause permanent mental harm (without any scientific proof that they do help these children more in other aspects than other forms of education)? For me, the answer is simple, which is why I am strictly against spanking children, and that not only when there is any acute danger for their lives.

Well, I don't think that rational analyses, informed opinions and the golden rule will ever be able to replace pseudo-moralistic discussions based on emotions, fear and personal taste. But if they did, our world would be a more tolerant and at the same time safer place, in my opinion. Luckily, there are people who use the informed, analytic approach. Some commenters in the original thread did (at least partially). In my opinion that's all one can ask for.


Ludwig said...

Spanking forum discussions about severe CP videos like the ones produced by Lupus are usually frustrating and frighteningly stupid. You tend to get 1 out of 10 contributors who is intelligent and able to make a reasoned, evidence-based argument, and 9 out of 10 who are making outlandish condemnations and generalisations based on prejudice, gut feelings, faulty assumptions and flawed reasoning. If you are really lucky, you get 3 out of 10 intelligent people, and 7 out of 10 clueless ones. I don't think I have ever seen a better ratio than that.

Then again, you see the same in the average political discussion on the web, so why should the kinky community be any better? We may want to believe that kinky people are less prejudiced and judgmental than vanillas, and more rational when judging others' consensual kinky activities, but years in the Scene have taught me that that is definitely a myth. In fact, I have come to believe that a large part of the kinky community is actually more narrow-minded than many vanillas I know.

I have given up on discussions on large forums a long time ago and very rarely, if ever, get involved in them anymore. You can waste your time and energy trying to be a lone voice of reason together with a handful of others, but it does not change a damn thing in the grand scheme of things anyway. People are going to believe what they are going to believe.

I am very happy with the smaller, but intelligent readership we have managed to attract here on the blog, and would much rather spend my time with them.

Simon said...

Peoples tastes vary and what I enjoy isn't necessarily what others do. I've always worked on the theory that as long as only consenting adults are involved there's no harm done and I don't have to watch it if I don't want to.
I have received several extremely severe punishments from my Mistress, punishments that left me bleeding in several places and have enjoyed them all. As you say the marks heal relatively quickly and I'm usually looking forward to the next time shortly afterwards. I don't think I'm mentally ill although I will admit to possibly being a bit unusual.The saying "different strokes for different folks" seems to be especially relevant to this subject. I wish I could put this argument in a more profound way but unlike yourselves it appears that my vocabulary isn't up to it.

Bobbie Jo said...

I have had a difficult time accepting the fact there are some pretty hard players out there. I have seen some stuff that has been rather shocking to me because the ones involved wanted the severity. I don't understand that, but I am not going to tell the ones that enjoy it they can't because it isn't my cup of tea. After all, I can choose to avoid it.

There are a couple of things that concern me. One is the possibility of infection and scaring if the skin is broken and blood is drawn. The other has to do with blood clots from deep bruising. While most clots come from the legs, there are some that happen in the lungs that the origin is not found. I know about this because I had one. I was not in the scene at the time so I know it didn't come from a spanking. However, I suppose it could happen. There is also one documented death from a hard spanking and that was a situation in Kansas.

These are some of my concerns about very hard play and I am willing to listen to someone who can explain to me that what Lupus does, as well as others along a similar vein, is according to medically safe parameters.

Ludwig said...

@ Bobbie Jo: Welcome (I don't believe you have commented here before?), and thank you for your comment.

You bring up an important point: when people engage in very severe CP play, regardless of whether it is during a video shoot or in private, proper attention has to be given to the medical aspects. Implements should be clean (i.e. not lying around on dirty floors) and disinfected before use. After the scene, the marks should be disinfected and bandaged. You can use ice packs to reduce swelling and prevent much swelling from arising in the first place. In the following days and weeks, you can use arnica or similar creams that help the skin regenerate. After a severe scene, enough time should be taken to allow the marks to fully heal before doing another spanking. And if you have a condition that prevents you from doing strenuous exercise, like a heart condition, you obviously should not be doing very severe CP scenes in the first place.

Kaelah and I are not medical experts, but we adhere to these basic guidelines and have lived very well with them so far. We very rarely do such severe scenes, anyway, and when we do, we always take all of the aforementioned precautions.

I know that there are producers who pay a lot of attention to the medical aspects as well. Mood Pictures, for instance, used to hire an actual professional nurse for their shoots, who would disinfect the cane welts afterwards, bandage them etc. Lupus did not provide any such care for the models at the shoot I was at, but then again, it was a fairly light video by their standards. I believe that Adele Haze, who had done the most severe scene in the video, got some care from Mr. Haze after the shoot.

My biggest criticism of Lupus and Mood is with the inaccuracy of some of their tops. Over the years, there have been a few Lupus tops, and more from Mood, who were not as safe and accurate with a cane as they should have been. So that is something where there was room for improvement, and it was something I have openly mentioned to them and been critical of in my behind-the-scenes reports and video reviews. Then again, it is a criticism that applies to many other producers of spanking videos as well, and to various private players in our Scene, so it is a bit unfair to single out only those two companies. All tops, on camera and off camera, should do their best to practice and be accurate with the implements, period.

With proper aftercare and enough time taken for the skin to fully heal, the risk of permanent scarring is very low - unless, I suppose, one is very elderly or has a skin deficiency of some sort. I do know some people from the Scene who have suffered permanent scarring or "weak spots", but it is my impression that this is usually the result of not only very hard, but also very frequent play with not enough breaks in between to let the skin heal.

(to be continued)

Ludwig said...


As for blood clots, that seems to be a more difficult issue to assess. I suppose it is possible for very hard CP play to cause blood clots and for these to even be fatal, but I am under the impression that it is highly unlikely and a bit of a "freak accident" - the kind that you can never fully rule out during most sports, or even while doing mere household chores. The question is, do we need to base our assessments on highly unlikely, worst case scenarios? If we did, we probably would not want to get on an airplane ever again, or cross the street, or leave the house at all.

My reply to such scenarios has always been this: when carried out by responsible people, with the proper precautions and care, hard CP play is a fairly safe activity. Perfectly safe? No. But neither are most sports. Actually, many more people have suffered permanent injury, or been killed, during sports than have ever been harmed in BDSM activities. People frequently tear tendons and muscles while playing football, break bones while skiing, suffer concussions from boxing, drown while swimming, fall to their death while mountain climbing, et cetera. And yet, no one considers these to be immoral activities.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the principle of individual responsibility: we have to decide for ourselves what risks we want to take and what risks we do not want to take. The moral part of it is forming an informed opinion beforehand about what one is getting oneself into, and then trying to minimize the risks for oneself and the other people who are joining in in a diligent, responsible manner.

Bobbie Jo said...

Thank you, Ludwig. That was very informative and I appreciate your input on this subject. I have had a hard time accepting this fetish in myself and some of the really hard scenes I have come across have been very disturbing. I have been able to accept that there are those who play hard and that is their thing. It isn't for me so I choose to not watch it. Once in a while I stumble on to it and when I do, I leave it.

I do like to watch videos of people being spanked as long as it isn't real severe.

I have posted once or twice before and I check your blog often. :-)

Ludwig said...

@ Bobbie Jo: My apologies, a search reveals that you have indeed commented before. I do remember your comment on self-spanking, in fact. I just did not remember having seen the nick before.

I can understand how people who are new to the Scene and are just coming to terms with their own fetish might find Lupus-style hard play disturbing when they encounter it for the first time. And obviously, not everyone has to like hard play - if you don't, then that is perfectly alright. What I am happy about is that you are not one of the people who jump to the conclusion "I find it disturbing, therefore it must be wrong!", as some do. That you are instead open-minded and willing to listen to people who have experience with hard play when they address your concerns. If everyone was like that, the spanking community would be a more tolerant place.

Fenris said...


Your point about someone being new to the scene who is disturbed after being confronted with Lupus or Mood for the first time holds true at least for me.
If I had to show a vanilla person what my kink is about, pictures from Mood or Lupus movies would be probably the last on my list just because they are on the more extreme end of the spectrum.
In the same way, imagine a person who can't swim and is afraid of water: Maybe it is not the brightest idea to teach him swimming in the open ocean to show him why swimming can be fun.

I wonder whether the passion for very hard CP is an acquired taste or whether it is more or less hard wired.
Personally, after reading your behind the scenes report from your Lupus and Mood adventures as well as Niki Flynn's "Dances with Werewolves", I am much more relaxed. I love the elaborate costumes and stories of Lupus while the action is still mostly too hard for my taste.
I haven't seen anything from Mood, but judging from your movie reviews it is just not my cup of tea. But to each his own, I guess.

Concerning blood clots: I don't think that spanking or caning itself is a major contributing factor in the formation of blood clots. Bending over an object, flexed in the hip and maybe with restraints on the legs for a long time seems to be more of a problem as this would cause an impaired venous flow, especially in combination with dehydration. But again, there is often more than one factor involved and it is hard to tell without any details.
Check the classic Virchow's triad in case of interest.

Ludwig said...

@ Fenris: I agree that Lupus or Mood videos are probably not a good first choice to show vanillas what our kink is about! *grins* It would be like introducing someone who has never seen a horror film to horror by showing them The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (which is a very good film, actually, but decidedly not for the faint of heart).

That said, I have come to believe that many vanillas are actually less shocked and have fewer problems with such videos than many kinky people. There are quite a few among Kaelah's and my vanilla friends who know about our kink, and even about our blogging and video exploits. Kaelah, especially, was very open about this with some vanilla friends from the beginning. I used to be very nervous about that. I thought to myself: "Oh great! Once they have seen some of the stills from some of the videos I've been in, they are going to think I'm a monster!"

As it turned out, though, nobody was shocked by it at all. Now, it has to be said that Kaelah's circle of friends includes some very well-educated, open-minded, progressive people. But even the ones who are more conservative and "old-fashioned", whom we both had feared might be pretty freaked out, just shrugged their shoulders when looking at some of the very severe stuff out of curiosity. They said that, no, they obviously do not find it erotic at all. But they do not find it disturbing or a cause for concern, either.

I have come to believe that, as long as BDSM practices are consensual and don't cause permanent injury, most vanillas don't care at all about what you do, even if is Lupus-style stuff.

The most negative and hostile reactions to severe CP videos which I have seen have usually come from kinky people. People who are themselves spankophiles, but only like softer forms of play. Now, in their mind, you are doing something wrong when you are into severe stuff. And because they are spankos, they have a personal, emotional attachment to the subject. They feel directly concerned, and perhaps threatened, by it in a way a vanilla person simply doesn't.

Anyway, this is a theory I have come to subscribe to. I suppose you could compare it to conflicts between different factions of Trekkies. Someone who is not interested in Star Trek does not care whether you like the original series or the next generation better. Why would he? It is not a subject that concerns him personally at all. However, among Trekkies, this can be a matter of almost religious significance, and there have been very serious, very hostile conflicts about it in the Trekkie community.

As for whether a passion for very hard CP is an acquired taste or more or less hard wired: that's an interesting question. Without having thought about it too much, my gut feeling would make me suspect that it is probably more or less hard wired. I think most spankos who like very hard CP do so early on, and tend to seek it out early on already - at least I did. People who are not into very hard CP might become more relaxed and more curious about it over time, but I don't think that they are likely to develop into full-blown severity freaks.

What I can dispel is the myth that people who like severe CP seek out harder and harder videos and play, that it is an ever-increasing thing. This is not true for me. Some of Mood's videos, for instance, are too hard and too bloody even for my taste. There is definitely an upper limit to what I can find erotic, and it has been very constant over the years. If anything, after having seen so many of them, I may have become somewhat less interested in severe videos than I used to be.

Ayesha said...

*raises hand* May i say something too? Thx. I hear "consenting adults" all over the place, and not only this place. Now picture this: I want to enslave someone who isn't interested in becoming my slave at all, and actually is disgusted about the whole femdom idea. Since i'm a very experienced seductress and know a truckload of manipulation techniques as well, i'm capable of convincing this person that he/she would be best of in starting a new life under my rule, leaving all and everything behind, never to return to her/his old life again. In the end he/she passionately agrees to my views and happily gives her/his consent to get enslaved by me. R we still talking "consenting adults"?

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: "May i say something too?"

Would you have remained silent if I had said no? Oops, too late!

But seriously, you raise an interesting question. Are we talking "consenting adults" in the scenario you describe? My answer would depend on what, exactly, you have in mind there.

First off, it has to be pointed out that consent in itself is not enough to make an action like this moral. More precisely, there has to be free and informed consent.

It should be easy to see why this is important: if I threaten someone with a gun and force him to give me his wallet, I may have gotten his consent, but not his free consent. Which is why most people, yourself included I suspect, would not regard this as morally okay. Or, if I sell someone a broken TV under the pretension that it is a working TV, I got him to consent to the contract, but it was not informed consent, because I was misleading him about the state of the TV.

Now, if you convince someone to become your "slave" through, as you wrote, seduction and "a truckload of manipulation techniques", I would say that it is at least highly doubtful that their consent can truly be considered free. The truckload of manipulation techniques part, especially, is problematic because it sounds quite close to brain-washing. Would you consider the actions of someone who has been brain-washed by, say, a government agency to be free actions? What do you think?

Moreover, one very important question is this: in the scenario we are talking about, does the person you enslave have an option to change their mind later on and get out of the relationship if and when they so desire? In business terms, does the person have an option to cancel the contract?

If yes, then we are not really talking about slavery in the sense it is commonly understood - obviously, slaves in the sense of how we commonly understand the term do not have the ability or the option to just set themselves free. If no, then I would consider such a contract to be immoral, because it violates the fundamental human right of self-determination.

Ayesha said...

See? Now u r talking! This is what i'm here for! Specifics, dammit! Yessss! No philosophie de bazar crap whatsoever. NO,no,no!

If u ever would threaten me with a gun, u would regret ur action without having the option to withdraw from the situation, the time to think if ur contract on me was worth the risk, and/or if i was morally correct having put u into that awful ordeal.

"Oops, too late!" Yes i noticed that: U r a bit slow.

Quai Franklin said...

This is a very interesting discussion. I find myself largely in agreement with both Kaelah and Ludwig, both about how to appropriately analyze the ethics of severe play, and the fact that it is so difficult to get people to have the intellectual discipline to separate their personal preferences from the analysis of the ethics or logical consequences of the actions being considered. Disappointingly, this seems to be true often in the professional intellectual world.

For example, I came across a podcast while looking for source material for Quai Franklin Radio, of a person who claims to be a licensed counselor - and who specializes in helping adults understand and incorporate their spanking desires into their lives. That's a fine mission, and listening to her podcast, she does a good job of attempting to give the listener good self-esteem about their desires, but in at least a couple of the episodes she speaks with obvious distaste about severe play with corporal punishment (including bruises etc.) as decidedly NOT spanking. And she goes on to suggest that those who participate in such severe play are in need of psychological help. This was very disappointing, from at least the point of view that having been educated to be a professional, she should have the intellectual discipline to understand that her opinions and preferences are just that and that she can't decide for others what spanking is or what they can consent to.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

Interessantes Thema! Jeder hat so seine eigenen Fantasien und seine eigenen Bedürfnisse!

Nur scheinen die besonders schwer, da zu akzeptieren zu sein, wo fast pausenlos von Toleranz geredet wird!

Allerdings bin ich auch der Meinung, die Filme die für den Verkauf produziert werden, richten sich nicht unbedingt, an Spanker und Spankee.

Denn dann würde es sicher ein dauerhaftes Geschäft mit roten Zahlen. Leute die den nächsten Kick suchen, scheinen mir da als Kundschaft lukrativer!

Ausnahme sind vielleicht Produktionen, die eine ganze Geschichte erzählen! Wie lange Spielzeit hat so ein Lupus Film? Wie viel davon nehmen Spanking Szenen ein?

Sind die Spanking Szenen wirklich so hart - oder nicht einfach nur passend zur Fantasie?

Das allerdings können viele der Online Helden nicht verstehen und wollen es auch gar nicht, denn das macht ihre schöne virtuelle Fantasiewelt kaputt!

Real gehöre ich ganz sicher nicht zu den Softspankern. Teilweise finde ich Lupus sogar soft! Da und dort könnte man sicher mehr raus holen.

Würde sicher auch funktionieren, wenn Darsteller besser miteinander harmonisieren würden.

Auf der anderen Seite wundere ich mich oft über die extremen Spuren! Frage mich wie das möglich sein kann, bei Darstellern die ziemlich regelmäßig bekommen! Auch da habe ich RL andere Erfahrungen! Als Top steht man oft ganz schön dumm da, wenn es einfach nicht gelingen will die Spuren zu erzeugen, die 3 Tage später noch im Spiegel zu bewundern sind!

@Ludwig deine schlechten Erfahrungen mit Foren teile ich nicht! Teilen tue ich allerdings die von dir geschilderten Verhaltensweisen! Kann es sein, dass du nicht akzeptieren willst und kannst, das Foren nur ein Querschnitt der Bevölkerung sind mit genau so viel Tratsch und Klatsch wie im Real Live?

Und ist es nicht so, mehr Aufmerksamkeit als mit Schlagzeilen, die man genauso in der Boulevard Presse finden könnte, kann man auch in der Spanking Szene nicht bekommen? Wer es braucht ...

Und wie sieht es in der Realität wirklich aus? Ich mache jetzt mal schamlos Werbung für unser Spanking Internat!

Wir haben Interessengruppen auf der Seite. Ich komme eher selten dazu da überall zu lesen. Heute hatte ich etwas Zeit, habe gelesen und geschmunzelt!

Über Aussagen von Teilnehmern vorm Internat, die beim Internat schon keine Gültigkeit mehr hatten!

Und stellt man Aussagen von vor dem Internat und nach dem Internat gegenüber, dann wird es richtig lustig!

Fantasie und Realität, haben halt doch einen kleinen feinen Unterschied!

Und kaum jemand weiß wirklich, wie er in der Realität dann wirklich reagiert bereits vorher!

Das trifft natürlich nicht mehr auf die "Alten Hirsche der Szene zu!"

Donpascual said...

@ Kaelah and Ludwig
as one of your commenters already wrote, I could have written most of your posts myself - perhaps less professionally worded though :-).
I once was urged to use a cane beyond the red line I had drawn for myself a long time before that actual situation came about. I refused to comply. The bottom was my wife. That was more than 35 years ago. Would I reconsider today, having gained a lot more of spanking experience? I don't think so.
True sadism is hard wired, because it is by definition (within our environment)an urge to inflict severe pain, mutilate, or deeply humiliate, regardless whether the bottom is a forced victim, a consenting playing partner, or an animal. The sadist is only interested in the fulfilment of his desires. That is my opinion and no judgement.
Ludwig, you once claimed to be a sadist. Nonsense! You are simply, judging by most of what you are writing, a pretty hard player and will never agree to non-consesual activities. And - just a speculation - you have never blown a frog to pieces.
After stating that I refuse to draw blood or go beyond what I consider to be aesthetic, I nevertheless confess to have collected every single Lupus video starting from the first Rigid East to the last Lupus about two years ago when I stopped collecting (because I will not be able in my life time to view several terabytes of videos). And the digitalized versions of the old VHS tapes are a cherished part of my video collection.
Now, if anybody thinks I am into blood and tears as a voyeur, I am not either! I never liked bruises and bloody marks. Particularly not those in the few Mood videos I own. However, I loved the dedication, the wit and creativity of the Lupus productions. I respected the art of caning of a Pavel Stasny. There is much more to these videos than deeply welted bottoms. One does not need to be a sadist to like productions like these.
We are all - I am generalizing on purpose - pretty complex human beings, spankers as well as vanillas. Our motives and tastes vary wildly and I think, the spanker community can be a pretty sad bunch of theoreticians, if they never had a bare bottom over their knees or have been in this lowly position. But the spankers/spankees who tasted the real thing are a quite different bunch of fellow humans. Having had the courage to lower their pants, they don't need anymore to discuss tolerance and golden rules or brag and lye about things they never dared to do. They have experienced liberation from years of dreaming and wishful thinking. What else can you want?

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Obviously, I was talking about a purely hypothetical scenario in order to make a point about free consent versus not-free consent. I would never threaten you or anyone else with a gun. I am not a violent person.

So, I am a bit mystified by you bringing up such a scenario, as well as by the generally irritated tone of your reply. The impression that this is sending to me is that you are angry. Is that in fact the case?

Ludwig said...

@ Quai Franklin: Thank you for your comment, and welcome.

Unfortunately, professional counseling seems to be a field not only for good and competent people, but also for quite a few quacks and charlatans, as well as well-intentioned but incompetent people who end up doing harm.

I don't know enough about this Jacqueline Omerta to judge whether she falls into one of the two latter categories. The name does sound like a stage name, and on a quick look at her website, I could not find any mention of what university she went to or where she received her degrees and license. From some quick online research I just did about the general subject of marriage and family therapy in the US, it seems that one can put major question marks over the academic and scientific standards. For instance, the universities accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Marriage and Family Therapy Education (COAMFTE) to be able to provide degrees in marriage and family counseling include private online universities, and private Christian universities which also teach young Earth creationism...

That as it may be, Jacqueline Omerta's allegation that spankos who are into severe play need psychological help, if this is indeed what she said, is wrong according to the consensus in the psychiatric profession. I am not an expert on matters of psychiatry myself, but I read up a bit on the subject of kink and mental health because of allegations like these being floated every once in a while in our community. The consensus, exemplified by diagnostic criteria given in internationally used professional manuals like the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) or the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD) is this: sadomasochistic behaviour is rated as a sexual or mental disorder when and only when a person has either 1) acted out these urges with a non-consenting person, or 2) the urges and behaviours cause major distress or interpersonal difficulty, i.e. preventing you from functioning in normal day-to-day life.

None of this is the case with any of the many spankos I know who like watching severe spanking videos or are into severe play themselves. They don't kidnap people off the streets to cane them, and they function perfectly well in their job, social and family life.

I suppose a case for 2) could be made if someone plays so extremely hard, so often and so recklessly that they incur major irreparable phyiscal damage. But again, I have never heard of anyone like that in the spanko community as I know it.

Ayesha said...

@ The Hypothetically Mystified One

Of cors u r mystified, lol, cos it was u who brought up that scenario, remember? I was merely using it to lightheartedly (not angrily eh?) give u a concise answer to ur questions.

Ahem, i’m a bit mystified too (grin). First u write: "....if I threaten someone with a gun and force him to give me his wallet....", followed in ur next comment by: "I would never threaten you or anyone else with a gun." Wonder why u chose this "purely hypothetical scenario in order to make a point about free consent versus not-free consent" in the first place, and not one u have firsthand experience of.

Ludwig said...

@ Rainer: "Allerdings bin ich auch der Meinung, die Filme die für den Verkauf produziert werden, richten sich nicht unbedingt, an Spanker und Spankee."

Die Filme von Lupus z.B. sind bei vielen Spankern und Spankees, die ich kenne, sehr beliebt. Sogar manche, die den Härtegrad eigentlich überhaupt nicht mögen, schauen sie sich wegen der Geschichten, den Szenarien und der aufwändigen Ausstattung an.

"Leute die den nächsten Kick suchen, scheinen mir da als Kundschaft lukrativer!"

Meinst du? Kann ich mir weniger vorstellen. Nach meiner Erfahrung schauen sich Menschen, die keinerlei Interesse an Spanking haben, sondern irgendeinen Kick suchen, vielleicht alles mögliche an, aber keine Spanking-Filme.

"Wie lange Spielzeit hat so ein Lupus Film? Wie viel davon nehmen Spanking Szenen ein?"

Üblicherweise zwischen 30 und 50 Minuten. Die "Action" nimmt, würde ich schätzen, je nach Film zwischen einem Viertel und der Hälfte der Zeit ein.

"Auf der anderen Seite wundere ich mich oft über die extremen Spuren! Frage mich wie das möglich sein kann, bei Darstellern die ziemlich regelmäßig bekommen!"

Viele Lupus-Darstellerinnen werden gar nicht regelmäßig versohlt. Das sind Vanilla-Models, die alle paar Monate oder Jahre mal so einen Film machen und ansonsten in ihrem Privatleben kein Spanking oder BDSM praktizieren. Zudem sind es junge Frauen, üblicherweise zwischen 20 und 30 Jahre alt und vom Körpertyp her eher schlank. Was alles zusammen die Spuren-Bildung sehr befördert.

Wenn du dir zum Beispiel mal ein paar Bilder aus Crime and Punishment anschaust, wirst du sehen, dass Niki Flynn in ihrer Szene zwar deutliche Spuren bekam, aber sehr viel weniger dunkelrot als die anderen (Vanilla-) Darstellerinnen.

"Ludwig deine schlechten Erfahrungen mit Foren teile ich nicht! Teilen tue ich allerdings die von dir geschilderten Verhaltensweisen! Kann es sein, dass du nicht akzeptieren willst und kannst, das Foren nur ein Querschnitt der Bevölkerung sind mit genau so viel Tratsch und Klatsch wie im Real Live?"

Oh doch, das akzeptiere ich sehr wohl. Nur sind der Klatsch und Tratsch für mich eben ein Grund dafür, warum ich viele Foren von vornherein meide. Wem das Spaß macht, wunderbar, aber ich verbringe meine Zeit eben lieber anders.

Ich muss auch klarstellen, dass sich meine schlechten Erfahrungen mit Foren in erster Linie auf Diskussionen über hartes Spanking im Stil von Lupus beziehen, nicht auf Foren allgemein. Und dumme oder vorurteilsbeladene Diskussionen können sich natürlich auch auf Blogs finden, nicht nur auf Foren. Das ist keine Frage von Forum oder Blog.

Mein Hauptgrund, warum ich heute kaum noch auf Foren schreibe, ist schlichtweg fehlende Zeit. Der Blog nimmt (leider) so ziemlich die ganze Zeit in Anspruch, die ich für die Spanking Community habe. Da bleibt nichts für Foren übrig.

Ludwig said...

@ Donpascual: Sadism, in the simplest, most general meaning of the term, simply means that a person enjoys inflicting pain. It doesn't really say anything more than that.

I do like inflicting pain in a consensual adult spanking or CP session, and I very much enjoy that particular aspect of inflicting pain. So by definition, I think I am a kinky sadist. I certainly regard myself as one.

I have never inflicted pain on a non-consenting person, because unlike consensual spanking and CP, it would hold no erotic appeal for me at all and, more importantly, it is obviously morally wrong. And no, I have never blown frogs to pieces, either (actually, killing animals for "fun" is one of the most morally and emotionally repulsive things I can think of). So, I am not what psychologists would call a pathological sadist, where sadism is an actual mental disorder.

That is the very important difference, and it is one that we always have to keep in mind when talking about sadism in the spanking community - the distinction between kinky sadism on the one hand, and a pathological sadism that gets acted out on non-consenting peopleon the other hand.

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: I chose that particular hypothetical scenario because it was well-suited for making the point I wanted to make about not-free consent. Whether I have any actual personal experience with such a scenario or whether I would ever actually do such a thing is irrelevant for that purpose.

Your June 27th reply did not give the impression of light-heartedness to me. I received more of an impression that you were angry and irritated. I checked it with Kaelah and she had the same impression. Obviously, it is possible that messages are perceived differently than how the speaker intended them.

Kaelah said...

@ Simon:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject! In my opinion you expressed your view very well. :-)

@ Bobbie Jo:
Thanks a lot for your comments! It is of course absolutely okay that you aren't into severe scenes. As I mentioned in my post, I still have difficulties to watch some severe film scenes as well and I prefer to stay away from them because I don't get anything positive out of watching them.

I think (like some others have already done as well) I can put you at ease about the medical risks, though. Talking a lot beforehand, playing within one's personal mental and physical limits, accuracy on behalf of the top as well as disinfecting implements and cuts are of course important requirements in order to stay within the realms of safe, sane and consensual play.

I haven't come across a single report about permanent scarring or blood clots as a result of that kind of severe play, though. While the marks produced by severe canings might look quite extreme, the cuts usually aren't deep and heal very quickly. The canes used by, for example, Lupus Pictures aren't heavy enough to cause any permanent scarring.

I think one of the problems is that in threads like the one I have written about, often lots of unproven claims are made by those who believe that only their kink is okay and everything beyond their own limits is sick. Either those participating in severe scenes are called mentally ill or dangerous. Or claims are made that this kind of play must be prohibited because it is extremely risky or causes permanent damage. There is never any proof for these assumptions, but still the ones making these claims manage to scare others. And if we hear a certain claim often enough, chances are good that we start to believe that there must be some truth in it.

I am very happy that you don't accept all these claims without questioning them! But I think you are an exception from the rule. In my opinion many people don't manage to challenge these claims because they are simply too scared and in a way happy that these arguments justify their negative gut feeling.

By the way, do you have any further information on that death in Kansas? I would like to read the documentation and find out what exactly happened there!

@ Fenris:
Thank you for sharing your experiences and for that helpful information about blood clots and their possible origins!

@ Ayesha:
As I have already written in my reply in the other thread, informed consent is indeed a hard limit for me.

Kaelah said...

@ Quai Franklin:
Welcome and thanks a lot for stopping by! The thought that even some professional counselors aren't able to distinguish between personal preferences and moral issues or professional medical statements is a sad one. But sadly I am not even totally surprised, given that people who claim to be intellectuals also teach young Earth creationism and other such nonsense, as Ludwig already mentioned... :-(

@ Spankingfreunde / Rainer:
At least the old videos produced by Lupus Pictures contain lots of storyline scenes and rather short action scenes compared to that. This is one of the reasons why many people like them so much, because they don't only show action scenes that are linked together by a pseudo story, they tell complete tales (often even combined with critical political statements). The canings are indeed very severe, as the pictures that I have chosen for the post show. The girl on the whipping bench is Niki Flynn and she almost didn't get any marks even from hard play because she was such a regular player. But, as you can see, the caning left some quite impressive marks on her bottom as well (which definitely took more than three days to heal).

As for the discussions about severe scenes on forums: Sadly, I can only confirm Ludwig's observations. Maybe it is different on your forum where many of the commenters know each other personally.

Unfortunately it seems like being active players doesn't make some people more open to different forms of kink, though. In my experience, the ones making the most vile accusations against people whose kink is different from theirs usually are active players. They often seem to have issues with their own kink, though, and feel threatened by everything that is beyond their personal limits. In my view, that's why they subscribe to the "my kink is okay but yours is sick" approach.

@ Donpascual:
Sadly, many people don't seem to experience the kind of liberation that you so aptly describe, even if they find the courage to try spanking for real. As I already wrote in my reply to Rainer, in my view issues with one's own kink is where the "my kink is okay but yours is sick" approach that is sadly shared by a not so small number of spankos (also active players) comes from.

As for the word sadist: It is indeed the correct term for what Ludwig is into and what I am into as well. But the word sadism is used for two very different things. Therefore, one has to distinguish between pathological sadism (the kind of sadism you referred to) and affectionate erotic sadism. As I explained in my post "Am I a Masochist?" to which I linked in this post: "The former is the kind of sadism that for example some killers and rapists are diagnosed with. It's a mental dysfunction based on the fact that these people aren't able to feel any compassion and therefore enjoy torturing others. Of course, this is NOT what we are talking about in the context of erotic spanking at all! My definition for the erotic form of sadism is: An erotic sadist is someone who enjoys inflicting pain in a consensual (erotic) setting. Usually this goes along with affection for the 'victim'." Ludwig and I are both affectionate erotic sadists according to the definition which I have given above. And there is nothing bad about that because this hasn't got anything to do with pathological sadism.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

Nun die selbe Aussage die Ludwig oben tätigte (meine Zeit zu schade) hat mir vor ein paar Jahren den Hass einiger Hausfrauen m/f eingebracht! *grins*

Und kennt man sich real ist mehr Toleranz da. Egal ob der eine damit aufgezogen wird wie ein Mädchen zu hauen oder dem anderen aus Angst aus dem Weg gegangen wird.

Komischerweise können dann ganz mega freche Gören auf jede Provokation. Krank hört man meist nur von einer ganz speziellen Sorte virtueller Superspanker!

Sorry I write in german, but its late. Ludwig tolds a blog is work (smile) a Community is harder :( works. And my english is not so good.

Ayesha said...

U say it’s irrelevant, and who knows maybe so, but i think u would have made a much stronger case for urself if u would have come up with an example from own experience. But maybe there r none.

It sure is. I wrote about that. And it’s a very common phenomenon. Still i was intrigued, so i asked Alejandra, Anita, and Lucinda about this, and they all came up more or less with the same thing: "Obviously that guy never saw you angry/irritated".

Donpascual said...

@ Kaelah and Ludwig,

none of you are sadists, I never meant to say that. Just the opposite. I mentioned that in order to stress that you are not.
By Ludwig's and your definitions, I am a sadist, too, although I probably would have refused to accept a role in a Lupus picture.
We really have no problem with each other.
I guess, my side tracking on sadism sort of obliterated my attempt to agree with you on everything you wrote ;-)).

@ Rainer

Ich denke, Ludwig hat den Nagel genau getroffen. Der übliche Unsinn, der in Foren so gerne verzapft wird, wird dort immer mehr durch Qualität ersetzt, wo die Leute sich entweder kennen, oder wo sie es lieben zu schreiben, statt Hahnenkämpfe auszutragen, von dem Bodensatz von Fakes einmal abgesehen.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

@Donpascual Die Diskussion hatten wir hier schon mal in einem anderen Thema. Moderne Forensysteme bieten heute mehr Möglichkeiten Fake und Troll ihr treiben nicht gerade zu erleichtern. Ohne dem Nutzer seine Anonymität völlig zu nehmen.

Ganz los wird man sie aber nie, muss auch nicht sein, solange sie stumm bleiben!

Kaelah said...

@ Donpascual:
Don't worry, neither Ludwig nor I perceived your comment as being negative. And we understood that you agree with us about the golden rule.

We just wanted to point out that there are two different forms of sadism, one being potentially dangerous and the other one being the kind of affectionate sadism that is part of harmless consensual BDSM activities (the SM in BDSM stands for sadism and masochism). Erotic CP is a special subsection of BDSM and contains affectionate erotic sadism and masochism in my opinion. According to the second definition both Ludwig and I define ourselves as erotic sadists which doesn't have any negative connotation for us because it is something completely different from the dangerous pathological form of sadism.