Wednesday, June 20, 2012

Football and Masochism

Germany has made it into the quarter-finals of the UEFA Euro 2012. Yippee! For those of you thinking: Hey, this isn't a football blog, it's a spanking blog! - bear with me. Because watching football reports can be very kinky, as Ludwig and I learned a few days ago. And I am not talking about the masochistic streak that fans of certain football teams definitely need to have. Like the Irish fans (I love their chants and their happy mood, it's a shame that the team didn't make it to the quarter-finals) or the fans from the Netherlands (sorry guys, but we did everything we could do for you in our last match).

No, I am talking about real kinky masochism! The one related to Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, the guy who has written "Venus in Furs", a book I am not very fond of as I once told you. Von Sacher-Masoch lived in a city that was then called Lemberg and was the capital of Galicia and Lodomeria, at the time a province of the Austrian Empire. Today the name of the city is Lviv and it is part of Ukraine, the land that hosts this year's European Football Championship together with Poland.

Well, and Lviv is also one of the cities where some of the football matches take place. For example, the last match of the German team during the group stage was held there. Often the TV reports of the matches are accompanied by clips about the culture of the countries that are hosting the European Championship. And so, there was also a clip about Lviv in preparation for the match that the German team had there. Nothing special so far. But this clip really caught Ludwig's and my attention!

It had been produced by the Brazilian TV channel and it wasn't about the city as a whole, but specifically about its famous son Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and the Masoch Café, a restaurant centred around kink and masochism where waitresses whip you for free. I found the TV report online. It's in Portuguese, but even if you don't understand the language, the pictures speak for themselves. You can watch the clip here if you like. It seems like some of the football fans had a lot of fun with that nice lady and her whip!

So, who says that watching football can't be informative and kinky? Well, in my opinion kink and sports go together very well, anyway! I just hope that the next matches of the German national team will appeal more to my sadistic side than to my masochistic streak...


Spankedhortic II said...

One of my work colleagues is Portuguese but I'm not sure if I should ask him to translate that clip for me :)

Thanks for the info, it has been the only interesting thing about the football so far, for me.


sixofthebest said...

Kaelah, and Ludwig. I would have liked for those naughty lady's with whips, to whip up some Sacher Torte for me, because I love that cake. Then I would give them their own medicine, by taking down their unterhosen, (knickers, panties, bloomers), and apply 'six of the best', with my pliable stinging cane on their naked rear ends, with pleasure.

Ayesha said...

Like her "slave", Wanda is a sad figure, not even coming close to a femdom.

The people having "fun" when "whipped" by silly girls in Lviv? Both parties show how easy it is to corrupt a beautiful, intense, and passionate thing like d/s, and make a ridiculous and laughable caricature out of it.

Deutschland - Griechenland? Na dann, viel Erfolg. Die Zukunft dürfte jedoch klar sein :)

Ludwig said...

@ Prefectdt: Probably not a good idea to ask your colleague for a translation, unless you don't mind coming out to him!

@ Ayesha: "Venus in Furs" certainly does not portray a happy and healthy relationship. Severin talks Wanda, who is not kinky at all, into being his "mistress", and she eventually obliges just to make him happy. That is not something I recommend to anyone - it doesn't work. At the same time, despite the problematic relationship it portrays, I think "Venus in Furs" is a good read and an interesting document from its time. One of the major, early classics of the kinky genre.

As for the Masoch Café: I think when we take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture, it is hard to deny that BDSM does have its ridiculous and laughable sides. Sexuality in general, and the various obsessions people build around it, is pretty ridiculous from a certain point of view. I think one can recognise this, and keep one's fetish in perspective, while at the same time being intense and passionate about it.

What I am saying is that I am not opposed to caricatures of BDSM, if they are funny. Perverts like us should be able to take a joke. Having said that, the caricature presented at the Masoch Café is not particularly inventive. But it was still kind of interesting to stumble across this little tidbit on TV.

Olli said...

Thank you very much for that hint - I didn't understand more than a very few words, but as you intended: I enjoyed the pictures. ;-)

And certainly, if I ever get to Lviv, the visit at that nice café will be a high priorized "have-to-go-there"!

Ayesha said...

@Ludwig. Clearly u r way more lenient and tolerant than i am.

I don't consider myself a pervert. Nonetheless i strongly believe that femdom and humor should stay intimately connected. But although i can make a lot of jokes, i'm never kidding.

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: For the record, I was joking when I wrote "perverts like us".

Talking seriously, no, of course kinky people are not perverts. "Perversion" is a very outdated and unscientific term and has been rightfully discarded in the field of sexual studies.

But I occasionally self-apply the term in a humorous manner. I don't remember who I stole it from. Probably Abel.

Kaelah said...

@ Spankedhortic:
I am glad that I was able to provide you with something that is interesting for you - despite of being related to football! ;-) Maybe it is better not to ask your colleague for a translation, though. It might be difficult to keep a straight face and pretend to believe that the clip surely must be somehow about football. ;-)

I assume that football isn't so popular in Belgium, anyway, is it? I have to admit that I didn't know whether Belgium ever had a football team that participated in the European or the World Championship. But I have looked it up and found out that the last time Belgium qualified for the World Championship was in 2002, which is not so long ago.

@ sixofthebest:
Hmm, maybe there is a "De Sade Café", too? Since von Sacher-Masoch was a bottom, I assume that most of the waitresses at the Sacher-Masoch Café are tops. But maybe you are lucky, and some of them switch?!

@ Ayesha:
Welcome and thank you for commenting!

I agree with Ludwig in that I don't see any need to worry about the clip, though. Because I think the people who are having fun at the café don't have any intention to ridicule other people's lifestyles. All that I can see are people from different origins who are having fun together and who are getting into contact with BDSM in a playful and positive way (even if most of them surely are vanillas and just go to the café to satisfy their curiosity).

For me, it is very important not to take myself and my way of life too seriously. I can definitely write heartfelt serious rants about healthy BDSM lifestyles and the like, but I also love to laugh about the things which define me and are important to me (not only kink, but also religious beliefs, my profession, geekdom, my national origin and my hobbies). People who really scare me are the ones who pretend that there are topics one isn't allowed to make fun of because they are somehow "holy". And people who want to tell me that there is only one certain correct way of doing something and anyone who does it differently is faithless, wrong or unworthy.

Of course there is intelligent humour and bad humour. But even the latter is okay for me, unless its only purpose is to intentionally hurt people. And I don't think that the people shown in the clip intend to do any harm. They just want to have fun and a good laugh together which I think is a beautiful thing in a world where so many sad things happen every day. I hope the next football match of the German team against Greece will be a lot of fun as well! :-)

@ Olli:
I am glad you liked the clip! Well, one understands "Sacher-Masoch" and "masochism" which I assume are the two most important words in the context of the clip. ;-) I think there was some kind of German translation when the clip was shown on German TV but I can't remember any important information which was given. Unfortunately, the café doesn't seem to be very good when it comes to the taste of the food. But I guess it's still worth taking a look and having a drink there.

Spankedhortic II said...

@ Kaelah - Unfortunately for me, football is hugely popular in Belgium. I do not think that there is a country in Europe where you can get away from it.


Ayesha said...

@ Kaelah. It's not an uncommon phenomenon that people want to come across as very open-minded, tolerant, and taking themselves with several grains of salt, while simultaneously come up with stuff like: "It's ok, but only if....." or "Sure you can behave like that, unless....". Mostly what follows the 'if' and the 'unless' is something in the order of: "it's consensual", or "it's hurtful". People like that r not flexible at all. When their standards r not met, or their comfort zone got ruffed a bit, they turn out being at least as rigid and intolerant as the ones they r accusing and criticizing for allegedly carrying those 'awful' traits.

Kaelah said...

@ Spankedhortic:
Cheer up, Prefectdt! In ten days the European Football Championship will be over and everything will be back to normal. :-)

@ Ayesha:
I am not sure whether I got your last comment right and whether you meant to say that not wanting people to get hurt or not wanting them to be forced to do something which they don't like is a sign of intolerance. If that's what you intended to say, then I strongly disagree with you. Someone who finds everything acceptable and doesn't have any limits isn't open-minded but a person without any ethical standards who doesn't care about the well-being of other people. In my opinion open-mindedness means to accept others as they are and to let them live as they want to, as long as their actions don't violate the health or freedom of others. If the latter is the case, limits have to be set and compromises have to be made.

That's why I said that I don't have any problems even with bad humour because usually one can simply turn away if one doesn't like it. Of course there are jokes which I don't find funny and which I find tasteless, and I also openly say that if it is so. I don't demand that jokes like that are immoral or should be prohibited, though, just because I don't like them. But if someone is, for example, mobbed online with others making "jokes" about that person with their intent being to hurt and destroy (which unfortunately can be very successful with people even committing suicide), it is absolutely necessary in my opinion to draw a line.

The same goes for kink. Basically, adults can do what they want in their bedroom. I don't have to like it, I don't have to feel comfortable with it and I don't have to pretend to, but still it is their choice. But if, for example, a person is forced into BDSM activities without wanting it (i.e. there is no consent), that is definitely not acceptable for me. That has nothing to do with intolerance, though, but with basic ethical standards and humanity!

I think the distinction is actually quite simple (in theory at least): It is the distinction between personal taste / personal preferences / personal limits and ethical values. Of course personal preferences are a valid point! But the problem is that people often use them as a base for morale judgements, stating that those who don't have similar preferences or who do things that are beyond their personal limits are behaving immorally. And, as I already mentioned in my last comment, I often see the most extreme forms of this kind of logic going along with the prohibition of making fun about certain things as well as the claim that there is only one correct way of doing a certain thing and everyone who doesn't follow that way is wrong, unworthy or unfaithful. Of course that kind of behaviour scares me, especially since I am living an unusual lifestyle that doesn't suit the taste of the majority of people.

In my opinion carefully distinguishing between personal preferences and morale judgements is the key to open-mindedness. Of course I don't pretend that I am in any way perfect when it comes to that distinction! But if you read my philosophical ramblings, you will see that I try very hard to make that distinction, especially when it comes to topics that are beyond my comfort zone, like this one or that one. In those cases I sometimes even take several days to write a post, constantly discussing it with Ludwig, trying to look at the topic from different angles and to distinguish between my personal preferences and moral aspects.

Ayesha said...

@ Kaelah. Having read some of ur prose, i certainly picked up that u r trying very hard, and at times r struggling with a variety of issues. I can appreciate same, and it was the very reason i decided to comment here.

The examples i gave were merely based on topics commonly discussed in the velvet underground. Instead, i also could have written: "Oh yes, i'm absolutely against any form of racial discrimination, but.....i rather not have my son marry a black girl".

"....but with basic ethical standards and humanity!" Having spent a considerable amount of time in places where people’s way of living significantly differs from western industrialized countries' ideas, norms, morals, ethics, and values, i found that's exactly where the shoe pinches. What is basic to some of us, seems to be laughable, even objectionable, to others, etc. Here's again an example from the velvet underground: For u, consent is of utmost importance. If i read u well, it's where u r drawing the line. I on the other hand cherish the idea of non-consensual femdom, knowing perfectly well it’s a tricky concept, and that most men as well as women who say they want to be forced into (sexual) slavery get scared, call the police, or go into hiding, as soon as reality knocks at their door. But then it’s already too late, hehehe. Not drawing the line at ssc, demanding full responsibility for whatever action i undertook as a result of that, brought me and my people some amazing experiences, and is certainly more in line with what other (self proclaimed) d/s people only can talk/fantasize about, or dismiss as not being ethical or something.

Looking at the world as it is today as well as its past, diversity, and “contradictions”, makes me think there is no universal ethical standard. At least not yet. That’s why i decided to go with my own standards. Some of them r flexible, and some r not! Some of them i can laugh at, and some i’m ready to die for.

If interested in getting a little bit more the feel of me, read In a way it touches the subject in question.

Zuerst aber….. Fußball :)

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: I guess I am one of the very few Germans who is not watching football this evening, so you'll get my reply before you get Kaelah's.

Kaelah and I have also travelled the world quite a bit. I have worked abroad for a time, and I have visited places like China, Russia, the Middle East and Latin America. It has made me appreciate even more how lucky I am to have been born and raised in a society that subscribes to the values of individual freedom, openness and universal human rights. Western society is far from perfect (as is any human endeavour), but I still find it preferable to any other form of society and government that is currently in existence.

Sure, other societies past and present have (had) different ideas from our own. But just because some societies considered slavery, human sacrifice, genital mutliation, religious mass murder etc. morally acceptable does not mean that this is so, or that we should do the same. Not unless you subscribe to a position of total moral relativism, which is probably not what you want to do?

In order to discuss this in depth, we would need to get into a proper meta-ethical discussion about moral values, where they come from, whether they are universal, whether moral statements express actual propositions that can be true or false, and so on. I am quite capable of having this discussion, but I think it would be out-of-place here, and boring for most readers. Let me just say, in short, that I subscribe to the position that there are in fact universal moral values, and that these can be derived from human reason according to our best understanding of our individual and collective needs.

What that means in practice is another long, complex discussion, but in my view, the so-called "golden rule" is a good starting point and will take us quite a long way: one should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. And one should not treat others as one would not like others to treat oneself. Many philosophers have developed variations of this theme in different time periods and cultures, from Confucius to Kant.

As for "non-consensual femdom", I don't know what, exactly, that means for you in practice. If you mean forcing subs into things they genuinely find humiliating or dislike doing, but within a consensual framework that has been negotiated beforehand, then I see no fundamental problem with it (although it requires a lot of mutual understanding, care and trust, and I don't recommend it to people who are new to BDSM or don't know each other very well). If, on the other hand, you are talking about real, "hard" non-consent, then that is morally unacceptable - and illegal according to the laws of the society we live in.

I know that there are some doms and subs in our scene for whom "real non-consent", "playing without a safeword" or however they call it is some kind of holy grail. The reality is that there is no such thing - not in a legal sense, anyway. The sub always has a safeword available: "Stop! I withdraw my consent!" If the dom continues after that point, we are no longer talking about a BDSM session, but about physical assault from a legal point of view.

You say that your version of BDSM brought you and the people you play with some amazing experiences, and that is great. I just hope that you are aware of all the moral and legal implications and potential consequences. There have been cases of subs pressing legal charges after sessions that went wrong, and "going with my own standards" is not a defence any court is likely to accept.

Oh, and apparently, Germany just scored a goal...

Ayesha said...

@ Ludwig.
"………and boring for most readers." Oh really? Well then, if that is true, it would say a lot about their morality don’t u think?

Human reason? A soft whispering coming from unknown parts of my soul, in addition to the usually powerful and often overwhelming impulses erupting from my limbic system, convinced me that human reason generally is overrated, especially when it’s used to establish universal moral values, and even can lead us into temptation/opposite directions like abandoning our alleged collective as well as our individual needs. To stay on topic: Check ur local "bdsm-scene" and u’ll find proof of this.

So here we r. Men and women screaming from the rooftops they want to be forced into slavery, to be dominated by the cruelest woman ever ( infamous loving female authority), so on, but when that really happens they shout: "Hey stop, this is morally unacceptable, this is illegal"?

The legal system? Is that a good thing? Is there also a universal one? I don’t need one. As i wrote elsewhere, i’m my own prosecutor, lawyer, and judge, whether ur courts agree, allow, recognize this or not.

Of cors i wouldn’t want to bore ur audience any longer with my views on this, lol, but in case u would want to read a few more of my thoughts on the matter, then by all means read on.

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Well, I think most readers would probably find the discussion boring because this is a blog about spanking and BDSM, not for philosophical discussions. If they wanted philosophical discussions, they would be reading philosophy forums and blogs! *grins* So, even though I am very interested in philosophy myself, I try not to go too off-topic, too long.

As for "men and women screaming from the rooftops they want to be forced into slavery, to be dominated by the cruelest woman ever": I think we very obviously have to distinguish between fantasy and reality here. As a spankophile, my erotic fantasies might involve corporal punishment in school, judicial canings in prison, or even medieval-style torture sessions with whips and chains. And I can role-play these scenarios with like-minded people, and we can get a lot of excitement and fulfilment out of it. This, however, does not mean that I support any of these practices in real life, or that I would want to experience any of them in a real, i.e. non-consensual, non-BDSM context. Actually, I consider corporal punishment in schools, torture, slavery etc. to be immoral. But I can fantasise about it and role-play it, and there is nothing immoral about that.

Pandora Blake recently wrote a very good post about the distinction between fantasy and reality, concerning women's rape fantasies. Studies indicate that many women - 52% in the study Pandora mentioned - have fantasies about forced sex with a man. But does any woman in her right mind seriously want to be raped, for real? No, of course not. I suspect the same is true for men (and women) who claim that they want to be "forced into slavery".

Thank you for your links. My spare time for reading other blogs is sadly very limited these days, but I will have a look for sure when I have the time.

Ayesha said...

@ Ludwig.
Ah yes the eternal distinction between what is called fantasy and reality. A dichotomy which doesn't really exist :)

Since u seldom read other blogs, let me tell u that i found vanilla slavery to be appalling, totally objectionable, and worth to fight against no matter what, but feminine femdom slavery the ultimate thing in human relationships. The latter not as a fantasy but as a r/l phenomenon. But u won't find any degradation, humiliation, dehumanizing, or any other popular bdsm fantasy in same.

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Well, we will have to agree to disagree on the dichotomy between fantasy and reality. Personally, I believe that it very much exists - if it didn't, I suspect, we would have many more millionaires and sports stars among the population!

As for feminine femdom slavery, if you and your partner(s) are happy with it, then that is great as far as I'm concerned. Good for you.

Kaelah and I do not have a dom / sub relationship. For us, spanking and BDSM are a way of exploring our erotic fantasies and exploring ourselves. But they are not a permanent power dynamic. In our kink, I am usually the top and Kaelah is usually the bottom, but we also switch from time to time. And in our relationship, we are complete equals. That is the kind of relationship we want and the kind we are very happy with.

Ayesha said...

If ur busy time schedule permits, watch at least the first video. The second one probably will asked a little more brainpower, but still, if u have the time.....take ur time.

Both were uploaded by me to lighten up one of my blog entries, but i wouldn't want u to lose more time than necessary |)

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Brain power isn't the problem, time is.

I've watched the videos. The first one is pseudo-science. The second one about optical illusions and perception is interesting enough. But, you know, I have done graduate level science and philosophy courses about perception, among other things, so none of this comes as a great revelation to me.

And it really is fairly off-topic on a kinky blog. *grins* So, cheers for the links, and let's get back on topic!

Ayesha said...

Science, pseudo-science? What’s the difference?

Not on topic? Well, maybe u r right, maybe not. I mean, u r exploring ur erotic fantasies and r trying to (partly) play them out in reality, while u never would want to support any of these practices in real life, is it not? Furthermore u stated that there is no such thing like non-consensual femdom, ergo telling me it must be an illusion?

Anyway, here’s something that certainly is on topic here. Or maybe not? I’m not an expert when it comes to scenes like this u know, as they’re absolutely off topic in my life.

Or would this one be more appropriate?

Still a teenager i asked my math teacher one day: "Sir, 1+1=2 isn't it?" Pensive he looked at me, and said: "Hmmmm, it probably is, but i'm not 100% sure."

Ludwig said...

Ayesha: "Science, pseudo-science? What’s the difference?"

That would be a long discussion if we wanted to address the question thoroughly, and really totally off-topic here. *grins* You could look at the Wikipedia article on Pseudoscience as a starting point, which is pretty decent. For a more in-depth and demanding treatment, I recommend the article on Science and Pseudo-Science in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Regarding "What the Bleep Do We Know!?", the Wikipedia article about this documentary has a section about the "Academic reaction", which outlines why many scientists consider it to be pseudoscience. I agree with their assessment.

"Not on topic? Well, maybe u r right, maybe not. I mean, u r exploring ur erotic fantasies and r trying to (partly) play them out in reality, while u never would want to support any of these practices in real life, is it not?"

Yes, I wrote that the distinction between erotic fantasy and reality is very important in my view. To which you replied that this is a dichotomy that you don't believe really exists. Later you posted two video links which, if I understood you correctly, were supposed to support that point of view.

Now, going from a discussion of erotic fantasy vs. reality in a BDSM context to a general philosophical / scientific discussion about the basic nature of reality strikes me as a pretty big leap. But let's go there for a moment.

Some important points made in the videos you linked to were that our perception determines what we consider to be real, i.e. that there is such a thing as subjective reality. And, that our perception is not always accurate. For instance, there are optical illusions.

I agree with both points. Actually, they are both very uncontroversial. However, it does not follow (from the fact that our perception determines our subjective reality and that our perception is not always accurate) that there is no such thing as an objective reality, or that there is not an important distinction between fantasy (i.e. our thoughts) and reality (i.e. the external world that exists independently of our thoughts about it). And, returning to what we had been talking about originally, it certainly does not follow that fantasy and reality are one and the same thing when it comes to BDSM.

"Furthermore u stated that there is no such thing like non-consensual femdom, ergo telling me it must be an illusion?"

No, you misunderstood me there. What I wrote was that there is no such thing as playing without a safeword, which some people in our Scene describe as a holy grail of theirs. Because, theoretically, a sub always has a safeword available: "Stop! I withdraw my consent!" If the dom does not stop after that point, what began as a BDSM session becomes assault from a legal point of view.

I hope the points I was trying to make are clearer now.

Ayesha said...

Hope? Yet another concept better to be send one way into oblivion. Anyway, ur point was crystal clear from the beginning: When time permits, u like the play d/s games, never them to become ur reality.

Ah yes, the holy grail of Science. Many scientists said that Semmelweis was an idiot, and that Earth was flat. Our dear Albert declared quantum entanglement spooky. And what to think of lovely Brigitte Boisselier?

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Science is not a "holy grail". It is one way among others to gain knowledge about the universe and ourselves, and while it is not perfect, it has worked very well overall so far. The technology we are using to have this conversation would not exist without science.

Sure, some scientific theories of the past turned out to be incorrect, and some of our present ones will undoubtedly turn out to be incorrect in the future. But this does not mean that the scientific method isn't useful or that we should discard it altogether.

You know what I'm thinking? The web is full of dime-store philosophy discussions. Do we really want to go on with this one? I don't.

One correction: "When time permits, u like the [sic] play d/s games..." Actually, the majority of Kaelah's and my play does not involve dominance and submission in any explicit way at all.

Do I read you correctly when I surmise that you consider yourself superior to us lesser mortals because your femdom is supposedly a "reality", as opposed to people who merely practice BDSM as a "game" or in a merely "recreational" manner? Your profile text suggests as much.

Ayesha said...

"The technology we are using to have this conversation would not exist without science." And certainly not without the splendid contribution of WWII.

My bad. U r not into d/s, but in t/b. Considering u present urself as a spankophile i should have noticed this. Mea culpa.

Within the reality of feminine femdom there is no place for vanilla/patriarchal concepts like superiority/inferiority. We laugh at those too. So, u read incorrectly. But since u r not living, and not inclined to ever live in my reality, i’m curious to know: R real philosophical discussions superior to what u call dime-store philosophy discussions?

Ludwig said...

Well, Germany is out of the Euro 2012 cup, so no more football masochism for us for the time being!

@ Ayesha: My expression "dime-store philosophy discussion" was not a value judgment about either of us. What I meant to say is this: in my view, a blog comment thread like this is just not the right format for in-depth philosophical discussions about subjects like reality and perception, science versus pseudo-science, and the like. Given the limitations of the format, such discussions are always likely to remain pseudo-intellectual instead of reaching the intellectual substance and rigour which subjects like these would require.

That is why I chose to not continue that kind of discussion here. Thank you for your understanding.

Ayesha said...

U r thanking me for understanding something u couldn’t be sure of i would. U simply assumed i would. And u know what that means eh? Or don’t u? Hmmmm, maybe u were just adhering to the code of widespread semi-politeness, trying to keep it what the masses call "civil"?

Be all this as it may, rest assured i’ve learned to understand a lot of things. And not only from a scientific point of view, but more from street-life, from people who live far from the safe, sheltered and often pompous so called free world. It/they made me understand for instance that the preachers of tolerance, human rights, morality, and other highly praised values/concepts, r often hypocritical morons overwhelmed by their own non-existing virtues and pseudo-wisdom. And yes, that’s a judgment.

I also became to understand that "limitations of the format" more than once added to the zest of my life and the ones who were involved with me in general and, referring to ur statement, conversations in particular. And not only that. They often forced me to be more attentive, ruthlessly critical, and less lenient with established rules and principles. Compare same to a passionate, raw, and chaotic brainstorm session a.k.a. mental lucha libre, where the participants r left with no other choice than to leave their rigid and restricting comfort zone, and r forced to take an in-depth (hehe) look at the other side of their fata morgana horizon, whether this brings them more acceptable and/or applauded insights or not. So in contrast to u, i welcome these "limitations of the format", which, in a way, r not limitations at all, but conditions where it’s easier to crack down on lousy paradigms, free ourselves from outdated and/or corrupting protocols, and build bridges between a variety of realities, including the one which vanillas call "fantasy".

But by all means, if u r too scared for this arena, leave it.

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: Right on! If you would like to write about yourself, your own life and experiences, I would probably find that a lot more interesting than pseudo-intellectual Youtube videos. And I would find it much more interesting to hear about what you support instead of what you oppose (so far, you have written mostly about the latter).

If your aim is to get me to look beyond my horizon, might I advise you that you are not going to achieve this with veiled insults, challenges to my courage or other forms of deliberate provocation. I find such behaviour adolescent and boring, it makes me lose my interest. You are much more likely to get me to listen by telling me about your views and your reality in a friendly, grown-up, civil manner.

On that note: you may not value civility, but Kaelah and I indeed do. So, you are free to do whatever you like on your blog, but here on ours, we expect our commenters to adhere to our standard of civility when talking to us or to each other.

Thank you for your understanding (see, I did it again).

Kaelah said...

@ Ayesha:
I won't take up all the points that have been made in your discussion with Ludwig because, as Ludwig already said, a spanking blog isn't the right platform for the kind of in-depth conversation that is needed in order to approach those subjects. I will answer your kink-related questions, though.

Yes, I draw the line at informed consent. Ludwig and I have friends who have made horrible experiences because others crossed that line. One friend has even been raped by a guy who abused her trust when she allowed him to tie her up for kinky play. She had never given her consent to anything beyond a spanking. And she made it very clear that she didn't want to have sex with him when she realised what he was up to (even if she had been too shocked to say anything, it would still have been rape). He didn't care. In my opinion, abusing another person in that kind of way is almost as bad as killing because something dies inside.

And in that way, there are universal ethical standards in my view. In my opinion abusing another person like that is morally wrong, no matter in which society a person lives. It might be that in some societies (or, for example, during wartimes) crimes like that go unpunished, or maybe even unnoticed. But that doesn't mean that the abuse is morally okay. For me, it is and remains always morally wrong.

Ayesha said...

And u will keep on doing same, cos no doubt u r one tough cookie.

Define ur civility, as the last time i had a conversation about that, it appeared to me people give content to that concept in a variety of ways. Like they do with truth, human rights, reality, loyalty, honesty, science, mature, fantasy, well, u know the drill.

Not that i would have any interest in wanting u to look beyond ur horizon, but if i would, i certainly wouldn’t try to achieve same via veiled insults, challenges to ur courage or other forms of deliberate provocation. That’s simply not me. If i seriously want someone to do something, i just tell them! I wonder tho what made u come up with such nasty ways of luring people into some kind of behavior. And since u brought it up, may i also ask: The time u were an adolescent urself, was that a bad time? Boring perhaps?

"If you would like to write about....."? Ugh! Grrrrr. What do u mean? My site is just dripping from that. Prose, poetry, music, it’s all there in abundance. But u wouldn’t know, as i recall it’s hard for u to go and read content on other people’s blogs. To upload my stuff here? Now, that really would be off topic. And we all know how u feel about that. So no.

I simply would have gone after that guy later, and killed him. Or would that be morally wrong?

Ludwig said...

@ Ayesha: There is no complete definition or ruleset which one could just write down for any standard of civility. Kaelah and I provide a constant practical example of our standard of civility, though, in our blog posts and in how we reply to our readers, which is easy to pick up on.

In reply to your question: no, my adolescence was a happy and exciting time for me. I remember it gladly. At the same time, I would not want to go back to it, as I am very happy with where I am today. And I find it boring when adult people engage in adolescent forms of behaviour.

I have read a bit on your blog, but honestly, I am not seeing a very distinct picture of you as a person amidst the prose, poetry, music and so on. You openly discuss your views on politics, society and the like, but whenever you talk about yourself, your individual life and experiences, the style seems fairly aloof and impersonal to me.

Anyway, that is just my own take on reading your blog. Other people will have theirs, and maybe they are getting a more distinct picture than I am.

Kaelah said...

@ Ayesha:
Yes indeed, it would be morally wrong from my perspective. Vigilantism isn't morally acceptable in my opinion, and neither is the death penalty (even when sanctioned and applied by the state). Revenge is not an acceptable justification for killing someone, self-defence is not the case in the situation we are talking about, and the protection of potential further victims in the future can be achieved by simply locking the guy away. So, there is no justification for taking a life here. It would only put the killer on the same low level as the rapist.

Ayesha said...

Re: "adolescent forms of behaviour". Guess in 10 years or so u’ll find ur current behavior boring as well.

Re: "aloof and impersonal". If that’s so after reading prose like "Faces of love....the Faceless One" and "Piano", or poetry like "Vide cor Meum", "Unrest", and "HaMa'eiven Yavin", u must be one heartless human being, and/or too self absorbed with urself to be able feel anything coming from my soul.

@ Kaelah
U really need to read

Ayesha said...

Kaelah, u r a saint.

Kaelah said...

@ Ayesha:
Ludwig is neither heartless nor self-absorbed. Different people simply prefer different kinds of communication and different writing styles! Honestly, I didn't get a clear picture of you from the excerpts of your writing that I have read, either. I am not so much into collages of prose, poems, videos and so forth, though, and I haven't spent too much time reading your blog in detail because most of the topics don't really resonate with me. I'm sure your like-minded long-time readers will know you much better from your writing!

Concerning "The Bigger Person": What I said was completely different from the kind of discussion quoted in your post. First, I don't tell victims of crimes what to feel. That's completely up to them, and feelings of hatred are very understandable in such a situation. Secondly, I don't tell them that they have to forgive their assailants or turn the other cheek.

My point was that the action of killing a person for revenge is morally wrong, and I stand by that view. Especially since the society in which I live (and in which the rape which I was talking about took place) offers other ways of dealing with people who have committed crimes and of protecting potential further victims. So, there is no moral justification for a murder in that case.

Kaelah said...

@ Ayesha:
Sorry, now our comments are in the wrong order because I corrected some wording and a comma mistake while you already posted your answer!

Rest assured, I am not a saint and I don't pretend that I can always live up to the moral standards which I consider right. But whether I (or anyone else) can always live up to certain moral standards doesn't say anything about whether these standards are justified or not.

Ayesha said...

Ok u r not a saint then. But just to get that morality thing of urs a bit more in perspective for me, let me ask u this: Today a 20-year old was sentenced to 162 years in prison without parole. Could this be morally correct?

Kaelah said...

@ Ayesha:
That's an interesting question, but again, not one I would like to discuss in detail on a kinky fun blog. Especially since we are moving even further away from the original purpose of this thread. Topics like these require a very thorough analysis of every single case, anyway, since there is no simple black and white.

In short: I can imagine situations in which life sentences in the sense that a person is kept in a closed facility for the rest of their life are morally acceptable in my view. For me, that's the case with people who for some reason remain an acute threat for other people's lives. What constitutes an adequate prison sentence for punishment reasons is a completely different matter, though, which would require me to take much more time than I am willing to take to acquire the juridical knowledge necessary to discuss such a topic adequately.