Saturday, December 31, 2011

Kaelah's Corner (Dec 2011):
A Past And Future Secret


2011 is coming to an end, and I would like to conclude the year with a few thoughts about the future. Not about the immediate future, though, but about the long run.

In a discussion with Rainer from the German Spanking Forum Spankingfreunde, the topics of how much to reveal about oneself in the online spanking community and data protection came up. I told Rainer that I am not willing to share information like the city I live in, its postal code or my date of birth online, even in the protected environment of a spanking forum. Rainer was surprised and asked me whether I wasn't committed to what I am doing here. I'm showing my face, so why not tell my date of birth?

My answer is that my caution hasn't got anything to do with not being committed to what I am doing here. But information about my postal code and my date of birth in combination with the other information which I have shared about myself here would make it easy to find my real name. And once my real name is connected to Kaelah online, every neighbour, workmate and prospective new boss can find out everything about my most intimate desires by simply googling my name.

Now, first of all, I only want to share these things with people like me, who are interested in erotic kink. Secondly, I'm taking a big risk by sharing pictures and clips. The knowledge that one's employee has visited a forum about this or that fetish might not be such a big thing for a boss in most cases. If I were merely one more forum visitor, I probably wouldn't want that to be found out by accident, either, but the prospect wouldn't scare me too much. But making porn (even if there is no vanilla sex involved), that is something completely different for many people!

Even people who are “just” outed as being kinky are often confronted with stupid assumptions like being a potential rapist, as we could see once again this year, or a danger to children. I also have been told the story of a photographer who made aesthetic erotic pictures (not even kinky ones, as far as I know) in his leisure time and suddenly had problems with getting professional jobs because of it. So, what about a couple who are kinky AND have published erotic pictures and spanking clips? I have to admit that I don't think our society is open-minded enough to deal with that.

Friends have warned me that there might soon be new ways of tracing down people online and revealing the real identities behind nicknames and photos. I have to be aware of the risk that one day, it might be quite easy for someone who, for example, gets an application form to search the internet for activities of that person, no matter whether a nickname was used or not. Even if Ludwig and I then decided to shut down our blog, there is no way of deleting all the online pieces of writing, comments, pictures and clips, especially since some of them have been made with professional producers.

So, sometimes when I think about Ludwig's and my future, fears come up. I see us outed and harm being brought to our family members and friends. There are pictures in my mind of us not being able to pay our bills because no one wants to give us a job anymore. I imagine youth welfare officers knocking on our door because some neighbour has called them in order to check whether our children are taken good care of. And I see me asking myself whether the fun of blogging and publishing pictures and clips was worth taking the risk of such an awful aftermath.

But even when I think about being outed, there is a part of me that imagines how I will use that situation to convince others that being kinky is nothing bad or dangerous. I see Ludwig and me holding our heads up high, not willing to be ashamed of anything we have done, and finally succeeding by proving that it's the prejudices against kink that are dangerous and wrong, not the kink itself.

I don't know what the future will bring. I'm not sure how long Ludwig and I will go on blogging or being a part of the online spanking community at all. I can't say for sure how I will evaluate our adventure as spanking bloggers in ten years' time. And I have no idea how the possible aftermath of all this might look like.

What I know, though, is this: I have met the man of my life through this blog and his clip-making activities. Writing, getting a positive feedback and kicking of discussions with my posts is something I enjoy tremendously. Taking creative erotic pictures and publishing them makes me feel womanly, sexy and happy. Publishing a clip gives me a wonderful thrill. And sometimes the greatest thing of all happens: I get a nice comment or email from someone who tells me that our writing has inspired him or her.

I've made a decision. I enjoy what I am doing. Sometimes I'm scared. But I'll deal with the aftermath my choice will bring. And I definitely won't ever regret not having taken the plunge. 2012 will be another exciting year on my journey and as a kinky blogger. I hope to see you all again then. Have a wonderful New Year's Eve and may 2012 bring you happiness and lots of kinky fun!

And if you like to share some thoughts about your own kinky future, I'll be happy to read about it. What are your fears? What are your hopes? Which risks are you willing to take?

43 comments:

Fenris said...

Once again, a very intelligent post about an important subject. Personally, I don't know if I had the courage to publish movies and pictures which are so intimate as well as write about very personal and private topics. Probably, CP-scenes as well as sharing ones phantasies and fears make you much more vulnerable than plain vanilla sex scenes which are nothing unusual in the mainstream media. I think that open up to someone about these phantasies and letting this person spank you is for me perhaps one of the most sincere expressions of trust, love and respect.
While one vanilla friend of mine knows exactly about my desires, I hesitate to share my kink with my parents towards whom I have no other secrets.
But on the other hand, if there weren't bloggers like you who show that there is nothing shameful and disgusting to live these phantasies with a beloved person, people who are more introverted (like me) would feel totally isolated. Your blog was the first on which I delurked because you write about your kinky life and relationship in a tasteful, sincere and yet humorous way.
Nevertheless, sometimes I am afraid whether this was the right decision. Of course, I don't want every neighbor or colleague at work to know about my kink.
But I realize that there are bloggers who risk their lives in totalitarian states to express their opinion. So what?
My real friends will accept me, kinky or not and I can work just as well as every vanilla person in my profession.
What are my thoughts about my own kinky future? After getting in contact with the online scene, I hope to meet some spankos in real life and find a partner who truly loves me and who shares my kink.
All the best for the next year.

Fred Bloggs said...

One of biggest threats to privacy online is face recognition software. It's amazing at recognising faces on my Mac laptop, and it's only a matter of time before it's searching all the faces online and tagging us. Your real name could be tagged to a picture associated with your scene name.

Our private and personal activities should not influence our work or our friends and family but in reality we all know that some people are prejudiced against kink.

I hope everyone has a safe private kinky 2012.

Happy new Year!

Fred

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

sorry I write german. My english ist to rusty for this global Life Style Headline.

@Kaelah
Ich habe etwas anderes gesagt als du verstanden hast. Niemand der nicht Mitglied ist kommt an die Angaben ran. Der dich erkennt, muss sich mindestens fragen lassen weshalb er den umfangreichen Registrierungsvorgang auf einer Spanking Seite vorgenommen hat. Die Antwort liegt Nahe - oder? Er teilt unsere Leidenschaft, sicher auch unsere Ängste.

Fred Bloggs hat Gesichtserkennung bereits angesprochen. Was Suchenmaschinen und Facebook bereits jetzt leisten, dürfte dir nicht unbekannt sein!

Bei deinen Ängsten so aktiv einen Blog zu betreiben, wie würdest du das nennen?

Ich kann dich aber beruhigen, die allermeisten die dich erkennen, werden es aus Angst vor ehrlichen direkten Antworten gar nicht wagen das Thema anzusprechen oder zu berühren. Nur sehr offene Menschen werden dich eben so offen ansprechen.

Offensichtlich ist dir nicht bekannt, das oberste deutsche Gericht, hat BDSM Praktiken als nicht sittenwidrig eingestuft. Dieses Urteil, liefert dir genug Munition um ein Teil deiner Ängste vergessen zu können. Ich möchte das Jugengendamt sehen was sich mit dem Bundesgerichtshof anlegt.

Das alles hat aber nichts mit den Minimal Angaben zu tun, die bei mir abgefragt werden. PLZ teilst du mit mindestens 7.000 anderen Menschen. Mit dem Geburtsdatum könnte dich nur jemand der bei den Sozialversicherungen arbeitet mit ziemlicher Sicherheit ausfiltern.

Das Risiko mit den Vids, Bildern und Texten hier ist unendlich höher.Das sich irgendein Moralist auf dich stürzt.

Und ganz ehrlich so anonym wie Ludwig vielleicht denkt, ist er in der deutschen Szene auch nicht!

Ich wohne zwar viel weiter nördlich, frage jetzt aber trotzdem mal ob Du guten Kaffee kochen kannst! Sollte ich mal in eurer Nähe sein - bekomme ich einen?

Ludwig said...

A translation of the comment from Spankingfreunde / Rainer for those who don't speak German:

"I said something else than what you understood. Nobody who is not a member [on the forum] can access the data. If someone recognises you, you have to wonder why he undertook the extensive registration process on a spanking site. The answer is obvious - isn't it? He shares your passion, and certainly your fears, too."

"Fred Bloggs already mentioned face recognition software. Without a doubt, you know what search engines and Facebook are already able to do today!"

"To write such an active blog given your fears, how would you call that?"

"I can calm you down, though, most people who recognise you will not dare to breach the subject for fear of direct responses. Only very open people will address you so openly."

"Apparently you don't know, the German supreme court declared that BDSM practices are not immoral. This verdict supplies you with enough ammunition to be able to forget about some of your fears. I would like to see the youth welfare service that dares to tangle with the supreme court."

"All this has nothing to do with the minimal information which you have to give on my forum. You share your postal code with at least 7.000 other people. As for the birth date, only someone working for the social security service could filter you out with that."

"The risk with the vids, pictures and texts here is infinitely bigger. That some moralist comes down on you."

"And honestly, Ludwig is not as anonymous in the German scene as he maybe thinks!"

"I live much further north than you, but I would like to ask you nonetheless whether you make good coffee! If I am ever near you - would I get one?"

Ludwig said...

@ Spankingfreunde: Mein lieber Rainer, ich habe den Eindruck, dass Du zuweilen den Wald vor lauter Bäumen nicht siehst.

Ob das oberste deutsche Gericht BDSM-Praktiken als nicht sittenwidrig einstuft, ist völlig wurscht. BDSM und Pornographie sind zwar nicht illegal oder offiziell sittenwidrig, skandalträchtig sind sie aber allemal. Und dies reicht völlig aus, um jemandem das Leben zur Hölle zu machen.

Im Jahr 2010 fand sich ein Lehrer aus Baden-Württemberg, der nebenbei in einer Death Metal-Band spielte, in der Bild-Zeitung wieder ("Dieser Lehrer darf unsere Kinder nicht unterrichten"), wurde vom dortigen Forum-Mob erwarungsgemäß als "total krank" und potentiell gewalttätig beschimpft und musste schließlich, nachdem ihm dies von der Schulleitung "nahegelegt" worden war, seinen Job aufgeben.

War es dazu nötig, dass Death Metal und Kunstblut auf der Bühne juristisch als sittenwidrig gelten? Nein. Und glaubst Du wirklich, es wäre unmöglich, wegen BDSM-Pornographie Besuch vom Jugendamt zu bekommen? Dann bist Du leider grenzenlos naiv. Es ist noch nicht einmal entscheidend, ob ein solcher Besuch konkrete Folgen hat - unangenehm ist er auf jeden Fall.

(unten fortgesetzt)

Ludwig said...

(fortgesetzt)

In diesem Sinne, noch einmal langsam und zum Mitschreiben:

Es ist ein himmelweiter Unterschied, ob man auf irgendeinem Forum herumgurkt oder ob man ein einigermaßen bekannter und exponierter Spankingvideo-Darsteller und Blogger ist. Wer in die zweite Kategorie fällt, zieht wesentlich mehr Aufmerksamkeit auf sich, und die muss nicht immer nett gemeint sein. Deshalb müssen Kaelah und ich eben in manchen Dingen vorsichtiger sein als ein gesichtsloser und weitgehend unauffälliger Foren-Nutzer.

Sämtliche Leute, die in unserer Community Bilder oder Videos machen, sind ansonsten ausgesprochen sparsam bei der Preisgabe persönlicher Daten. Dafür gibt es gute Gründe. Postleitzahl und Geburtsdatum z.B. können in Verbindung mit dem Aussehen einer Person völlig ausreichen, um jemanden zu identifizieren. Schnüffel-Journalisten, Hobby-Stalker und Hobby-Erpresser haben da so ihre Methoden, wie Dir viele Spanking-Models aus eigener, leidvoller Erfahrung berichten können. Niki Flynn z.B. hatte nicht nur einen Stalker, sondern gleich mehrere, die sie jahrelang hochmotiviert verfolgten. Paul Kennedy von Northern Spanking wurde in einer Zeitung geoutet, verlor daraufhin seinen Job und musste seinen Wohnort wechseln. Oder frag mal Leia-Ann Woods, was die 2008 für ein tolles Jahr durchgemacht hat und von wem sie da regelrecht belagert wurde.

Bist Du ernsthaft der Meinung, dass so jemand vor dem "umfangreichen" (selten so gelacht!) Registrierungsvorgang auf Deinem Forum zurückschrecken würde, wenn er dort an gewünschte Informationen käme?

Sicher, Kaelah und ich gehen mit dem Blog, den Bildern und den Videos ohnehin große Risiken ein. Aber man muss sie ja nicht fahrlässig noch weiter vergrößern. In jedem Fall gehen wir die Risiken, die wir eingehen, bewußt und bereitwillig ein - weil wir den Blog und die Videos gern machen, und weil wir gern etwas an die Community zurückgeben, in der wir uns kennengelernt haben und mit der uns viele persönliche Freundschaften verbinden. Dass wir uns dann von Dir die Unterstellung anhören müssen, wir würden "nicht richtig dahinter stehen", nur weil Kaelah sich nicht unter Preisgabe realer Daten auf Deinem Forum anmelden will, ist schon ein ziemlicher Witz.

Ich gehe davon aus, dass Du anders reden würdest, wenn Du selber in Videos zu sehen wärst oder in Deinem eigenen Bekanntenkreis erlebt hättest, was das für negative Folgen haben kann. Soziale Ächtung, Arbeitsplatzverlust, sogar Journalisten, die im Auto vor der Haustür übernachten - ist bei Freunden von uns alles schon vorgekommen. Glaub mir, da entwickelt man Verständnis für ein bißchen Paranoia.

"Und ganz ehrlich so anonym wie Ludwig vielleicht denkt, ist er in der deutschen Szene auch nicht!" Ich weiss nicht, ob dieser Satz und die Frage nach dem Kaffee-Besuch als Drohung oder einfach nur als schlechter Scherz gemeint sind. In jedem Fall kann ich nicht darüber lachen. Falls Du weiterhin auf dem Blog zu kommentieren gedenkst, möchte ich Dir anraten, bei Deinen Äußerungen in Zukunft etwas mehr geschmackliche Treffsicherheit walten zu lassen.

Ansonsten frohes neues Jahr, und ich hoffe, wir verstehen einander jetzt besser.

Ludwig said...

(translation of my reply to Spankingfreunde)

My dear Rainer, I get the impression that sometimes, you can't see the forest for the trees.

Whether the German supreme court has declared BDSM practices to be not immoral does not matter one whit. BDSM and pornography are not illegal or officially immoral. They are, however, excellent scandal material. And that is all that is required to make someone's life a nightmare.

In 2010, a teacher from Baden-Württemberg, who also played in a death metal band, found an article about himself published in Germany's biggest tabloid ("This teacher must not educate our children"), was predictably insulted as "totally sick" and potentially dangerous by the forum mob there, and eventually had to give up his job after the school administration"suggested" this to him.

In order for this to happen, was it necessary for death metal and stage shows inlcuding fake blood to be considered immoral in the legal sense? No. And do you honestly think that it would be impossible to get visits from the youth welfare service because of BDSM pornography? If so, you are incredibly naive. It is not even necessary for such a visit to have direct consequences - it is unpleasant in any case.

(to be continued)

Ludwig said...

(continued)

So, once again, very slowly and for taking notes:

There is a huge differences between puttering about on some forum and being a reasonably well-known, exposed spanking video performer and blogger. People in the second category attract a lot more attention, and not all of that attention is necessarily well-intentioned. That is why Kaelah and I have to be more careful about certain things than a faceless and largely inconspicuous forum user.

Everyone in our community who makes pictures and videos is otherwise very circumspect with personal data. There are good reasons for this. The postal code and birth date, in combination with someone's looks, can be entirely sufficient for identification. Snoop journalists, hobby stalkers and hobby blackmailers have their proven methods, as many spanking models will be able to confirm for you out of personal, unpleasant experience. Niki Flynn, for instance, not only had one stalker, but several who followed her over the years in a highly motivated manner. Paul Kennedy of Northern Spanking was outed in a newspaper, lost his job and had to change his place of residence. Or you can ask Leia-Ann Woods about the wonderful year she had in 2008 and about who was besieging her then.

Do you honestly believe that people like that would be deterred by the "extensive" (thanks for the giggles!) registration process on your forum if they knew that they can find desired information there?

Sure, Kaelah and I are taking great risks as it is, with the blog, the pictures and the videos. However, we don't have to needlessly exacerbate them, do we? In any case, we take the risks we take consciously and gladly - because we enjoy writing the blog and making videos, and because we enjoy giving something back to the community where we met and where we have many personal friendships. The fact that we then have to listen to your allegation that we are "not fully behind it", merely because Kaelah refuses to register on your forum while giving out real data, is really quite a joke.

I assume that you would talk differently if you were visible in videos yourself, or if you had witnessed in your own circle of acquaintances what negative consequences this can have. Social stigmatisation, loss of work, even journalists sleeping in their car in front of someone's house - it all happened to friends of ours. Trust me, you develop an understanding for a little paranoia.

"And honestly, Ludwig is not as anonymous in the German scene as he maybe thinks!" I don't know whether this sentence and your question about a coffee visit are supposed to be a threat or merely a bad joke. Either way, I am not laughing. If you plan on continuing to comment here, I would advise you to exercise better accuracy of taste in your future remarks.

Other than that, Happy New Year, and I hope that we understand each other better now.

Kaelah said...

@ Fenris:
I can definitely relate to your fears! I think you don't have much to worry about, though, as long as you don't give away any concrete real-life data. From my experience friends and family really aren't a problem. Some might be able to deal better some worse, but even though many of friends and several family members know about my kink, not one of them has turned away. I'm at least glad that you took the plunge and delurked and I keep my fingers crossed for you to find real friends in the spanking community and finally a partner who shares your interest!

@ Fred:
You mentioned an important point. I'm very well aware about face recognition programs and just didn't mention them because I didn't want to explicitly point them out in my post. Luckily, there are of course protection mechanisms against these programs, too, and as with everything else I try to minimize the risks as well as possible.

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:
Ich hatte Dich schon richtig verstanden. Deshalb habe ich auch von der "geschützten Umgebung" eines Spanking-Forums gesprochen. Aber mal ehrlich, jeder, der sich für die Daten interessiert, kann sich getarnt als Spankophiler auf Deinem Forum anmelden, zumindest für ein oder zwei Tage. Deine Schutzmechanismen können das nicht verhindern.

Im übrigen: wenn man auf dem Land lebt, reduziert die Kombination aus PLZ und Ortsname die Anzahl der in Frage kommenden Menschen ggf. auf ein paar Hundert. Nimm Dir ein Photo, fahr dort hin, zeige es jemandem, und innerhalb von Minuten hast Du den Realnamen der Person. Sobald die Verbindung zwischen dem Blog und dem Realnamen einmal online veröffentlicht wurde, kann es jeder sehen, ohne sich dafür jemals auf einem Spanking-Forum anmelden zu müssen.

Außerdem können ganz ohne Absicht Dinge öffentlich gemacht werden, z.B. indem jemand freundlich auf dem Blog zum Geburtstag gratuliert, ohne daran zu denken, dass das Datum offiziell ja gar nicht bekannt ist. Mir ist letztens beinahe etwas Ähnliches passiert, als ich öffentlich auf das Herkunftsland von jemandem verwies, mit dem ich auch privat in Kontakt stehe. Plötzlich fiel mir auf, dass ich mir gar nicht sicher war, ob die Herkunft öffentlich bekannt war oder ob wir nur im privaten Kontakt darüber gesprochen hatten. Ich habe das dann noch vor der Veröffentlichung überprüft und es stellte sich heraus, dass die Information in der Tat öffentlich bekannt war. Hätte aber auch schief gehen können. Menschen machen nun einmal Fehler, und je mehr Menschen eine Information haben, desto wahrscheinlicher ist es, dass sie öffentlich wird.

"Bei deinen Ängsten so aktiv einen Blog zu betreiben, wie würdest du das nennen?" - Ganz einfach, das bezeichnet man als kalkuliertes Risiko. Der Punkt ist: Bloggen sowie das Posten von Photos und Videos sind mir wichtig. So wichtig, dass ich sogar mein Gesicht zeige. Ich bin mir aber der damit einhergehenden Gefahren bewusst. Ludwig hat Dir bereits die vielen Beispiele geschildert, die wir selbst mitbekommen haben. Das bedeutet nicht, dass ich ständig in Angst lebe. Aber ich bin intelligent genug, mir bewusst zu sein, wie unsere Gesellschaft funktioniert und wie das, was ich heute tue, meine Zukunft beeinflussen kann.

Ein kalkuliertes Risiko einzugehen bedeutet in diesem Zusammenhang, alle zusätzlichen Risiken auszuschalten, die nicht zwingend notwendig sind, damit ich die Dinge tun kann, die mir wichtig sind. Glaube mir, ich bin mir all der bereits von Dir und anderen genannten Gefahrenquellen sehr wohl bewusst. Die Datenkrake Facebook und ähnliche Netzwerke werden mich niemals als Kundin haben. Es ist völlig unmöglich, dass ein Gesichtserkennungsprogramm im Internet eines meiner Spankingbilder mit einem Bild unter meinem Realnamen verknüpfen kann. Und es gibt keine Möglichkeit, über die jemand online an Realdaten von mir kommen könnte. Das hat überhaupt nichts damit zu tun, dass ich nicht zu dem stehen würde, was ich hier tue, oder dass ich permanent Angst hätte. Es ist einfach eine Frage des gesunden Menschenverstands.

Kaelah said...

@Rainer:
(English translation)

I was aware that the data on your forum is only visible for members. That's why I talked about the "protected environment" of a forum. But let's face it, everyone who is interested in getting that data can become a member of your forum, at least for a day or two, pretending to be a fellow kinkster. Your protection mechanisms don't prevent that from happening.

And, by the way, if someone is living in a small village, the combination of postal code and city name might already reduce the number of people in question to a few hundreds. Just take a picture, drive to the village and show it around – you are going to have the real name within a few minutes. Once the connection has been published online, everyone is able to find it, without ever having to become a member of a spanking forum.

In addition to that, there is always the risk that someone gives away information by accident, for example by wishing a happy birthday here on the blog without thinking about that this information isn't public knowledge. I nearly had such an incident myself lately when I mentioned the country of origin of a fellow kinkster with whom I also have private correspondence. Suddenly it came to me that I wasn't really sure whether that information was public knowledge or whether we had only talked about it in private. I checked it before publishing and it turned out that the information was indeed public knowledge. It could easily have gone wrong, though. The more people know a certain information, the bigger the risk that someone gives it away by accident.

"To write such an active blog given your fears, how would you call that?" - Well, I would call it taking a calculated risk! The point is: Writing, posting pictures and making videos are important things to me. Important enough for me to even show my face. I am aware of the risks that go along with that decision, though. Ludwig already told you about the many examples we have come across. That doesn't mean that I'm constantly worried. But I'm intelligent enough to be aware of how our society works and what the things I'm doing today can mean for my future.

Taking a calculated risk then means avoiding all additional risks which are not strictly necessary for me to do the things I want to do. Believe me, I'm aware of all the possible threats that have been mentioned. The data hydra Facebook and the like will never have me as their customer. There is no way that a face recognition program can match one of my kinky pictures with a picture that is tagged to my real name online. And there is no way you can find any personal data about me online. That has nothing to do with not being committed to what I do or with being constantly worried. It is simply a matter of common sense.

Donpascual said...

I fully support Ludwig’s position on this very important issue. There is a fundamental difference between being active in the scene (being known personally and participating in public events), and being present in the Net - including unmasked face.

I know Rainer personally and we have had some fun together, organising spanking events. The danger of being outet was obvious, however, the giant danger factor of the Net was missing at that time; meeting strangers during a well organized event seemed to be a very calculable risk. Besides, we all profited from these events by finding spanking partners and real friends in incredibly short time. Within the forum, posting became a lot more interesting when addressing people you knew instead of potential fakes.

However, we also made photos and videos, of course distributed to the participants only. Today, I am not sure whether this was a good idea. If somebody would put some of these pictures or videos on YouTube, a lot of us would be very unhappy, indeed.

Although I am retired for more than 10 years now, I cannot out myself because of a small business which is our main source of income. I do not care whether some idiot calls me a pervert, but we want to eat for a few more years. Certainly, active BDSM is not a criminal offence, but sure like hell it is condemned by all these law abiding, upright and pious hypocrites who will ruin a family plus business without qualms, although they might have a few bodies buried in their basements themselves.

@Rainer: it is easy for you to be completely visible. The fact alone that you have to post an impressum on your site makes you known to the world at large and you could care less about nosy neighbours or other unpleasant citizens anyway. However, a young couple like Kaelah and Ludwig who will have to earn a living for some time to come within a system of envy, greed and ignorance, need all the protection they can get. The fate of Paul Kennedy and others should be a warning.

@Ludwig: You are quite right, you cannot make things undone. Shutting down the site is no solution; the traces of your activities will follow you forever. That is a trivial fact.
To me, it is the intellectual quality of your blogging that makes it rather difficult, to hit you below the belt. Philosophical content and rather deep understanding of what you are writing about should be a certain protection against cheap attacks. But our kink will not be accepted for a long time, I am afraid.

Donpascual said...

By the way,

a happy and prosperous new year for you. Hopefully, you will not be harmed by the dangers lurking in the dark.

Alles Gute
Don

Fenris said...

@ Ludwig:
I have just found an article about the whole Mosley affair as well as the fact that Paul Kennedy lost his job which I didn't know.
I hope you won't mind if I link to this blog, but I think it helps to understand your position:
http://heresydungeon.blogspot.com/2008/07/everything-ive-learned-about-spanking.html
I hardly remember the Mosley story at all. Normally, I am not interested in this kind of "news". Actually, I try to respect other people's private life, may they be famous or not. In my naivety, I assumed that as long as I don't interfere with the private life of another person, I may be left alone as well.
Obviously, you have much more insight in the whole Mosley case as you seem to know many of those involved personally.
In my opinion, you and Kaelah have every right to remain as anonymous as you wish, as well as every other reader of this blog.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

@Ludwig Das war keine Drohung, es sollte dir nur bewusst machen, das du so anonym auch nicht bist. Du bist halt ein alter Hirsch in der Szene, der Spuren gezogen hat. Hin zu kommt, in einem Forum bist Du einer von tausenden. Als Webmaster bist Du Galionsfigur und Zielscheibe in einem.

@Kaleha Natürlich kann sich jeder registrieren. Muss sich dann aber nach dem Grund fragen lassen. Wenn dir aber jemand gezielt schaden will, findet er so oder so Wege.

Nebenbei, ich wohne auch auf dem Land, auch hier teilst du mit mindestens 7.000 anderen deine PLZ.

Niemand hat etwas dagegen, wenn du die nächst größere Stadt angibst. Auf die Impressumpflicht deutscher Webseitenbetreiber hat dich Don schon hingewiesen.

Es wäre einfach, für die Presse vor meiner Tür im Auto zu übernachten. Warum sollten sie? Ich bin keine Schlagzeile Wert!

Über Outing Storys und Schwierigkeiten bzw. Ärger den man bekommen kann, braucht ihr mir wirklich nichts erzählen. Die ersten Erfahrungen damit hatte ich 2002 und es waren nicht die letzten. Gezündet wurden sie immer aus der ach so toleranten Szene. Nie von Ausstehenden.

Ich denke das viel mehr Leute aus meinem privaten Umfeld über meine Verknüpfung mit der Spanking Szene wissen als ich ahne. Ähnlich wird es bei euch auch sein.

Den einen ist es egal,die anderen haben Angst vor Antworten, wenige andere sprechen es offen an. Was völlig okay ist.

Das gefährlichste ist die eigene Angst, der Glaube sich verstecken zu müssen. Nur der (die Angst) macht die Schlagzeilen.

@Ludwig als alter Hirsch, ist dir das Thema Troll und Fake bekannt. Seit ein paar wenige Angaben als Pflichtangaben gefordert werden, ist es deutlich ruhiger geworden.

Das ist der eigentliche Grund. Wenn du allerdings mal zu Facebook und anderen Netzwerken schaust wirst du nur noch über das Thema verstecken schmunzeln.

@Donpascual: Ich wünsche Dir und Deiner Frau ein "Frohes neues Jahr"

Ludwig said...

An English translation of the new comment from Spankingfreunde / Rainer:

"@ Ludwig: That was not a threat, it was only supposed to make you aware that you are not all that anonymous. You are, after all, an old stag in the Scene who has left tracks. Moreover, in a forum you are one among thousands. As a webmaster you are a figurehead and a target."

"@Kaleha [sic]: Of course, anyone can register. But he will be asked about the reason. If someone wants to intentionally harm you, he will find ways, anyway."

"By the way, I also live in the countryside, and even there you share your postal code with 7.000 others."

"Nobody is opposed to you naming the nearest big city. Don already mentioned the obligation to have website credits on a German forum."

"It would be simple for journalists to sleep in their cars in front of my door. Why would they? I am not worth a headline."

"You really don't have to tell me about outing stories and the difficulties or the bother one can get. I made my first experiences with that in 2002 and they were not the last. They were always caused within the oh so tolerant Scene, never by outsiders."

"I think that many more people from my private environment know about my connection with the spanking Scene than I suspect. It will be similar with you."

"Some do not care, others are afraid of answers, a few will talk about it openly. Which is perfectly okay."

"The biggest danger is one's own fear, the conviction that one has to hide. Only this (the fear) creates headlines."

"@ Ludwig: You as an old stag will know about trolls and fakes. Ever since asking for some obligatory data [on our forum], the situation has become noticeably more quiet."

"That is the real reason. However, when you look at Facebook and other networks, you are merely going to smile about that issue."

"@ Donpascual: I wish you and your wife a 'happy new year'."

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

thanks Ludwig for translate, I can read english but when I must write english, a lot of words I am missing!

So i can´t say what I will. German is better than. Google translate or bing translate are to funny for this tread.

Ludwig said...

@ Spankingfreunde / Rainer: Danke für die Klarstellung in Sachen "alter Hirsch".

Dass das Abfragen einiger realer Daten die Anzahl von Trollen und Fakes auf einem Forum reduzieren kann, ist mir klar. Ein Allheilmittel ist es sicher nicht, denn die Leute können ja schlicht und einfach falsche Angaben machen. Aber ich verstehe sehr wohl die Intention hinter Deinen Forum-Regeln. Damit habe ich auch kein Problem.

Dies ist aber hier nicht das Thema. Ich glaube ehrlich gesagt, dass Du den springenden Punkt immer noch nicht so ganz verstanden hast. Der springende Punkt ist, dass Spanking-Videos um ein Vielfaches skandalträchtiger sind als das Betreiben eines Spanking-Forums, und dass Leute wie Kaelah und ich deshalb in manchen Dingen vorsichtiger sein müssen als Du. Dafür scheinst Du wenig bis gar kein Verständnis zu haben, sicherlich auch deshalb, weil Du selber keine Videos machst und Dich deshalb nicht wirklich in unsere Situation hineinversetzen kannst.

Du schreibst: "Ich bin keine Schlagzeile Wert!" Fein. Schön für Dich. "Mein Nachbar betreibt ein Spanking-Forum!" ist in der Tat keine besonders skandalträchtige Schlagzeile. "Mein Nachbar prügelt Mädchen in ungarischen SM-Pornos!" jedoch schon.

Okay? Verstanden? Können wir uns darauf einigen, dass da vielleicht ein gewisser Unterschied besteht? Nicht moralisch, aber in Sachen öffentliche Wahrnehmung und wie man ein verzerrtes Bild von jemandem zeichnen kann?

(unten fortgestzt)

Ludwig said...

(fortgesetzt)

Auch ansonsten legst Du eine eher eigenwillige Logik an den Tag:

"Wenn dir aber jemand gezielt schaden will, findet er so oder so Wege."

Also, weil Leute, die einem gezielt Schaden wollen, sowieso Wege finden, kann man alle Vorsicht fahren lassen. Findest Du das ein überzeugendes Argument?

"Über Outing Storys und Schwierigkeiten bzw. Ärger den man bekommen kann, braucht ihr mir wirklich nichts erzählen..."

Das übersetze ich mal mit: weil Du selbst unangenehme Erfahrungen gemacht hast, sollen Kaelah und ich uns nicht so anstellen. Das finde ich ebenfalls wenig überzeugend, besonders, wenn man den oben angesprochenen Unterschied zwischen dem Betreiben eines Forums und dem Auftreten in Videos bedenkt.

"Auf die Impressumpflicht deutscher Webseitenbetreiber hat dich Don schon hingewiesen."

Wenn Du Dich privat und beruflich so sicher fühlen kannst, dass es Dir egal sein kann, ob Dein echter Name mit BDSM-Aktivitäten in Verbindung gebracht wird, dann ist das schön für Dich. Du solltest jedoch bedenken, dass nicht jeder in so einer glücklichen Situation ist.

"Gezündet wurden sie [die Outing Storys] immer aus der ach so toleranten Szene. Nie von Ausstehenden."

Gerade deshalb sind Kaelah und ich bei Leuten aus der Szene auch sehr vorsichtig.

"Ich denke das viel mehr Leute aus meinem privaten Umfeld über meine Verknüpfung mit der Spanking Szene wissen als ich ahne. Ähnlich wird es bei euch auch sein."

Leute in unserem privaten Umfeld sind auch nicht das Thema. Da wissen in der Tat einige bescheid und wir machen uns keine Sorgen deswegen. Wir machen uns wegen Leuten Sorgen, die wir nicht kennen - Schmuddel-Presse, Hobby-Stalker, Hobby-Erpresser.

"Das gefährlichste ist die eigene Angst, der Glaube sich verstecken zu müssen."

Nein. Das gefährlichste ist die Tatsache, dass Menschen, die BDSM-Videos machen, tatsächlich in Sachen Karriere und bürgerliches Leben viel Schaden durch Diffamierung erleiden können. Schaden, der dann auch Freunde und Familie trifft. Beispiele dafür gibt es genug, die habe ich genannt.

Und solange dies so ist, ist eine gewisse Vorsicht schlicht und einfach eine Sache des gesunden Menschenverstandes. Da wird mir glaube ich jedes Spanking-Model in unserer Szene zustimmen, genauso wie Donpascual oben, der sich mittlerweile selbst bei nur im Forum verteilten Bildern und Videos fragt, ob das so eine gute Idee war.

"Wenn du allerdings mal zu Facebook und anderen Netzwerken schaust wirst du nur noch über das Thema verstecken schmunzeln."

Wie Kaelah bereits angemerkt hat, sind wir (selbstverständlich!) nicht bei Facebook und werden auch nie dort sein. Und nebenbei: die Tatsache, dass Facebook den Datenschutz mit Füßen tritt, heisst ja mitnichten, dass ich das bei Anderen, die es weniger schlimm treiben, gutheissen muss. Das "Die Anderen machen es doch viel schlimmer!"-Argument war noch nie besonders gut.

Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn: ich glaube, wir können uns darauf einigen, dass es jedermanns eigene Entscheidung ist, welche Risiken er wo eingehen will und welche nicht. Belassen wir es dabei.

Ludwig said...

(English translation of my reply to Spankingfreunde / Rainer:)

Thanks for the clarification re: "old stag".

I realise that asking some real data during registration can reduce the number of trolls and fakes on a forum. It is certainly not a miracle cure, because people can just enter false data. But I do understand the intention behind your forum rules. I don't have a problem with that, either.

But this is not the issue here. Frankly, I think that you are still not grasping the point. The point is that BDSM videos are much better scandal material than running a spanking forum, and that therefore, people like Kaelah and me have to be more careful with certain things than you. You seem to have little or no understanding of that, undoubtedly also because of the fact that you are not making videos and can not fully empathise with our situation.

You write: "I am not worth a headline." Fine. Good for you. "My neighbour runs a spanking forum!" is indeed not a very scandalous headline. However, "My neighbour beats girls in Hungarian SM porn films!" very much is.

Okay? Understood? Can we agree that there is perhaps a slight difference there? Not morally, but in terms of public perception and how it is possible to paint a distorted picture of someone?

(to be continued)

Ludwig said...

(continued)

You are showing some quite skewered logic elsewhere as well:

"If someone wants to intentionally harm you, he will find ways, anyway."

So, because people who want to intentionally harm you will find ways, anyway, we can all throw caution to the wind. Do you consider this a convincing argument?

"You really don't have to tell me about outing stories and the difficulties or the bother one can get..."

I translate that to: because you made some unpleasant experiences yourself, Kaelah and I should not make such a fuss. Again, I do not find this convincing, especially when one considers the differences between running a forum and making videos which I talked about earlier.

"Don already mentioned the obligation to have website credits on a German forum."

If you can feel safe enough, privately and professionally, to not care about your real name being linked to your BDSM activities, that is good for you. However, you should note that not everyone is in such a fortunate position.

"They [the outing stories] were always caused within the oh so tolerant Scene, never by outsiders."

Which is why Kaelah and I are very careful with people in the Scene.

"I think that many more people from my private environment know about my connection with the spanking Scene than I suspect. It will be similar with you."

People from our private environment are not the issue. Some indeed know about our kink and we are not worried about that. We are worried about people we don't know - gutter press, hobby stalkers, hobby blackmailers.

"The biggest danger is one's own fear, the conviction that one has to hide."

No. The biggest danger is the fact that people who make BDSM videos can realistically suffer a lot of damage through defamation. Damage which then also engulfs their friends and families. Examples aplenty exist, I have mentioned them already.

And as long as this is the case, a certain caution is simply a matter of common sense. I think every spanking model in our Scene will agree with me on that, as Donpascual did above, who now wonders whether distributing pictures and videos even only to forum members was such a good idea.

"However, when you look at Facebook and other networks, you are merely going to smile about that issue."

As Kaelah pointed out already, we are (obviously!) not on Facebook and never will be. And besides: the fact the Facebook does not give a crap about privacy issues does not mean that I have to condone this with others simply because they aren't being quite as bad. The "The others are even worse!" argument never was very convincing.

Long story short: I think we can all agree that everyone has to decide for himself which risks he wants to take, where, and which ones he does not want to take. Let us leave it at that.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

Du hast mich falsch verstanden. Ich glaube daran, auch Spanking Darsteller sind für die breite Masse völlig uninteressant.

Ich glaube auch daran, dass wenn dir jemand Schaden will, er egal was du machst Wege findet.

Die Schlagzeilen selbst wirst Du nie verhindern können. Sie aber erheblich vermindern können, wenn du nicht durch Ängste gelähmt wirst!

Stichwort: "Ich bin BDSM-ler - na und!" ala "Ich bin schwul und das ist gut so!"

Ich denke Du verstehst was ich damit meine. Natürlich ist jeder sein eigener Hüter! Klar sind wir uns da einig.

Doch sollte man keine Risiken da sehen, wo keine mehr sind. Als Rohrstockpalast bis du halt Aushängeschild und kein Unbekannter! In einem Forum bist Du einer von tausenden.

Die vor den du Angst hast, die begegnen dir im RL genau so wie in der Virtuellen Welt.

Persönlich bist du bereits viel größere Risiken eingegangen, als sie Wohnort und PLZ darstellen. Irgendwie klingt gerade aus deinen letzten Beiträge sehr deutlich heraus das du dir dem sehr wohl bewusst bist.

Auf nichts anderes wollte ich Kaelah im Ursprungsposting, welches zu dieser anregenden Diskussion hier geführt hat hinweisen.

Kaelah said...

Here is the English translation of the new comment from Spankingfreunde / Rainer:

You got me wrong. I believe that people who make spanking videos aren't of any interest for the broad masses, either.

I also believe that if someone wants to cause you trouble, that person will find a way, regardless of what you do.

You won't be able to prevent headlines. But you can diminish them if you aren't paralyzed by any fears!

Keyword: 'I'm into BDSM – so what!' in analogy to 'I'm gay and that is fine!

I think you understand what I mean. Of course everyone is his/her own guardian! Sure we agree about that.

But one shouldn't see any risks where there are none. Being the Rohrstockpalast you are a figurehead and not anonymous! On a forum you are one among thousands.

You can meet the ones you are afraid of in your real life as well as in the virtual world.

You have already taken risks which are much higher than the ones resulting from sharing information about the city you live in and its postal code. It somehow becomes obvious especially from your last comments that you are very well aware of that.

That was all I wanted to point out to Kaelah in my first comment which led to this interesting discussion.

Kaelah said...

@ Donpascual:
A Happy New Year to you as well! I can relate to your fear about the photos. Even if they are only published in the protected environment of the forum, there is always a risk that someone makes a copy and publishes it in a public place. I guess chances are good that no one on the forum would want to do that, but a theoretical risk remains.

@ Fenris:
Max Mosley surely was more interesting for the yellow press than many others because of his fame. But similar things have happened to average people as well if the headline came handy for some journalist. That's why Ludwig and I are definitely going to stick to our limits and safety measures.

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:

Ich denke, wir teilen einige Einschätzungen, unterscheiden uns aber auch in manchen, weshalb wir zu unterschiedlichen Bewertungen bestimmter Aspekte kommen. Ich habe die aus meiner Sicht relevanten Punkte noch einmal abschließend gegenübergestellt.

Dein Fazit in Deinem letzten Kommentar an Ludwig war: „Persönlich bist du bereits viel größere Risiken eingegangen, als sie Wohnort und PLZ darstellen. […] Auf nichts anderes wollte ich Kaelah im Ursprungsposting, welches zu dieser anregenden Diskussion hier geführt hat hinweisen.“

Da sind wir uns vollkommen einig und waren es auch immer! Worin wir uns m.E. unterscheiden, ist die Einschätzung der Handhabbarkeit des Risikos und der Folgen für das Handeln, die sich daraus ergeben. Meine Einschätzung: Auch das Risiko, das wir mit dem Blog eingehen, ist handhabbar, wenn man an anderer Stelle vorsichtiger ist als andere. In Verbindung mit weiteren (wenn auch in sich selbst geringeren Risiken) wird es jedoch unkontrollierbar.

Bei der Risikoeinschätzung zum Outing und den Folgen haben ebenfalls ein paar ähnliche, in mehreren Punkten aber auch unterschiedliche Ansichten:

„Über Outing Storys und Schwierigkeiten bzw. Ärger den man bekommen kann, braucht ihr mir wirklich nichts erzählen. Die ersten Erfahrungen damit hatte ich 2002 und es waren nicht die letzten. Gezündet wurden sie immer aus der ach so toleranten Szene. Nie von Ausstehenden.“

Wie Du, sehe ich die Gefahr eines Outing vor allem in der Szene, und zwar auf zwei Wegen: Absichtlich von jemandem, der sich geärgert hat, und unabsichtlich von jemandem, der sich versehentlich verquatscht.

„Es wäre einfach, für die Presse vor meiner Tür im Auto zu übernachten. Warum sollten sie? Ich bin keine Schlagzeile Wert!“ - „Ich glaube daran, auch Spanking Darsteller sind für die breite Masse völlig uninteressant.“ - „Das gefährlichste ist die eigene Angst, der Glaube sich verstecken zu müssen. Nur der (die Angst) macht die Schlagzeilen.“

Darüber, inwiefern Du im Sommerloch für einen findigen Redakteur nicht auch eine Schlagzeile wert wärst, möchte ich nicht spekulieren. Die vielen Fälle, die Ludwig und ich aufgezählt haben, zeigen jedenfalls, dass Spankingvideo-Darsteller zwar nicht auf lange Sicht für die breite Masse interessant sein mögen, aber für eine kurze Schockschlagzeile allemal taugen (insbesondere in Verbindung mit härteren SM-Szenen). Die reicht, um ggf. Unannehmlichkeiten bis hin zum Jobverlust zu bewirken. Die Folgen treten unabhängig davon ein, wie cool man ist und wie sehr man zu der Sache steht. Selbst wenn ich meinen Namen selbst veröffentliche, halte ich niemanden davon ab, mir zu schaden, nur weil er sich dann denkt: Wow, die steht dazu, da macht es wohl keinen Sinn, darüber zu schreiben.

„Ich glaube auch daran, dass wenn dir jemand Schaden will, er egal was du machst Wege findet.“

Auch hier stimme ich Dir zu, aber das ist nicht das Risiko, dass ich eindämmen möchte. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass jemand so versessen darauf ist uns zu schaden, ist sehr gering. Natürlich kann jemand trotz aller Sicherheitsmaßnahmen bei Dir einbrechen, wenn er das unbedingt möchte. Die Polizei wird Dir aber bestätigen, dass die meisten potentiellen Einbrecher bereits von grundlegenden Schutzmaßnahmen abgeschreckt werden.

Für uns heißt das: Wenn in der Szene nur sehr wenige Leute relevante Informationen haben, kann sich kaum einer verquatschen. Wenn es zudem online quasi unmöglich ist, private Vergleichsinformationen über uns zu finden, mit deren Hilfe man eine Verbindung zu unseren Realnamen herstellen könnte (auch nicht mit den vorhandenen Bildern), ist das für viele Journalisten und jemanden, der sich geärgert hat oder sich einen schlechten Scherz erlauben will, in 99 % der Fälle zu umständlich. Die haben nämlich meist nicht so viel Zeit für eine komplizierte, zeitintensive Recherche.

(wird fortgesetzt)

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:
(fortgesetzt)

Das ist das, worin sich nach meinem Verständnis unsere Einschätzungen unterscheiden. Unser prinzipielles Vorgehen indes unterscheidet sich meiner Meinung nach gar nicht großartig: Du möchtest unbedingt ein Forum anbieten. Da Dich die Impressumspflicht dazu zwingt, gehst Du dafür das hohe Risiko ein, Deinen Namen und Deine Adresse anzugeben. Die möglichen Folgen für Dich hast Du aber offenbar abgeschätzt und als tragbar empfunden. Dennoch hat Dein Profil kein Bild von Dir und Du veröffentlichst im allgemein zugänglichen Raum keine Fotos von Dir beim Spanking. Man könnte argumentierten, dass Du das doch jetzt ruhig tun könntest, denn worauf Du stehst und wo sie Dich erreichen könnten, wissen die Leute doch sowieso. Da sind öffentliche Bilder ein vergleichsweise geringes Risiko. Aber Du hast hier für Dich eine Grenze gesetzt. Ich finde das legitim und auch sehr klug. Bei Ludwig und mir ist das nicht anders. Und andere Leute setzen ihre Grenzen noch viel enger, was ich auch absolut legitim finde.

„Die Schlagzeilen selbst wirst Du nie verhindern können. Sie aber erheblich vermindern können, wenn du nicht durch Ängste gelähmt wirst! Stichwort: 'Ich bin BDSM-ler - na und!' ala 'Ich bin schwul und das ist gut so!'“

Wie schon erläutert, glaube ich, dass man die Chancen auf eine Schlagzeile zumindest deutlich senken kann. Ich stimme Dir aber vollkommen zu, wenn es darum geht, wie man am besten mit der Situation umgeht, wenn sie doch eintritt. Das habe ich auch bereits in meinem Ursprungspost geschrieben. Ich schäme mich nicht für das, was ich hier tue. Ich habe keine Lust auf ein öffentliches Outing, nicht wegen meinen Freunden und Bekannten, die größtenteils von meinem Fetisch wissen, sondern wegen der beschriebenen anderen möglichen Folgen. Aber natürlich habe ich einen Plan, wie ich ggf. damit umgehe. Nur wird das mit „Ich mache SM-Pornos und das ist gut so!“ eben deutlich schwieriger in unserer Gesellschaft.

Zuletzt: Ich glaube, mein Post hat bei Dir den Eindruck erweckt, dass ich in ständiger Angst lebe. Da kann ich Dich aber beruhigen, das ist nicht der Fall! Ich nehme mir nur hin und wieder mal die Zeit, meine Sicherheitsausrüstung für meine Reise zu überprüfen und zu überlegen, was möglicherweise auf dem Weg passieren kann und ob ich dafür richtig ausgerüstet bin. Daraus entstand dieser Post. Ansonsten genieße ich einfach die Reise. Unser Clip „48“ wurde bis jetzt insgesamt 2.579 mal heruntergeladen. Da denke ich mir nicht: „Oh nein, hoffentlich erkennt mich keiner und hoffentlich werde ich nicht geoutet.“ Ich denke mir: „Cool, dass das so viele Leute interessiert!“ Das Gleiche trifft zu, wenn es um die Besucherzahlen auf dem Blog geht. Nur, wie Du auch sagtest:

„Natürlich ist jeder sein eigener Hüter! Klar sind wir uns da einig.“

Und da sieht unsere Sicherheitsausrüstung eben einfach ein bisschen anders aus als Deine oder als die vieler anderer Spankophiler, die möglicherweise ganz andere Grenzen, eine andere Risikobereitschaft und auch eine andere ganz Risikoeinschätzung aufgrund ihrer Lebensumstände für sich persönlich haben. Ich möchte mir nicht anmaßen, die Vorsichtsmaßnahmen der einzelnen Leute als notwendig und richtig oder falsch und unnötig zu bewerten. Ob die Risikoeinschätzungen richtig waren, kann man sowieso immer erst im Nachhinein sagen, aber ich denke, da muss jeder sich an das halten, womit er sich persönlich wohl fühlt.

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:
(English translation)

I think we share similar points of view concerning several topics, but concerning others our points of view differ which leads to a different evaluation of certain aspects. I have created a concluding overview of the relevant points, as I understood them.

Your conclusion in your last comment to Ludwig was: “You have already taken risks which are much higher than the ones resulting from sharing information about the city you live in and its postal code. […] That was all I wanted to point out to Kaelah in my first comment which led to this interesting discussion.”

We completely agree about this point, and always did! In my opinion the difference lies in our evaluation of the manageability of this risk and the resulting implications. My point of view is: The risk we take with our blog is manageable as well, as long as we are more cautious than others in other fields. Because combined with additional risks, the risk becomes uncontrollable, even if those risks in itself are smaller than the one which we already take by running this blog.

Concerning our evaluation of the risk to be outed and the consequences if and when this happens we also share similar opinions in some parts, but again there are several differences as well:

“You really don't have to tell me about outing stories and the difficulties or the bother one can get. I made my first experiences with that in 2002 and they were not the last. They were always caused within the oh so tolerant Scene, never by outsiders.”

Like you I see the biggest risk of being outed coming from within the Scene: either intentionally by somebody who is angry for some reason or by someone who unintentionally blabbers out confidential information.

“It would be simple for journalists to sleep in their cars in front of my door. Why would they? I am not worth a headline.” - “I believe that people who make spanking videos aren't of any interest for the broad masses, either.” - “The biggest danger is one's own fear, the conviction that one has to hide. Only this (the fear) creates headlines.”

I don't want to speculate about the chances of a journalist deciding during the summer slump season that you are indeed worth a headline. The many cases Ludwig and I mentioned at least show that people who make spanking videos (especially if the scenes are more severe) are worth at least a short shocking headline, even if they might not be interesting for the broad masses in the long run. And that can already be enough to cause trouble to the point of losing one's job. These consequences occur irrespectively of how cool one is and how much committed one is to the things one does. Even if I publish my real name myself, it won't keep people from causing me trouble, just because they think: “Wow, she is so committed to what she does, it doesn't make any sense to write about it.”

“I also believe that if someone wants to cause you trouble that person will find a way, regardless of what you do.”

Again I agree with you. But this isn't the risk which I'm trying to diminish. Chances that anyone is so obsessed with causing us trouble are quite low. Of course someone can always break into your house, despite of all the precaution measures you might have taken, if that's what he or she really wants. But police is going to tell you that most potential burglars are discouraged even by basic safety measures.

For us that means: If only very few people within the Scene have relevant information, the risk of someone giving away that information diminishes. If in addition to that there is practically no chance to find any private information about us online which would enable people to draw a connection between the blog and our real names (despite of the pictures), it becomes too complicated for 99% of the journalists and those who might be angry about us for some reason. Both types usually don't have enough time for a complicated, time-consuming investigation.

(to be continued)

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:
(English translation)
(continued)

That is where our points of view differ in my opinion. I think the way we handle things isn't that different, though: It is important to you to offer a forum. Since the obligation to have a legal notice forces you to publish your name and address in order to do that, you have decided to take that big risk. It seems that you have evaluated possible consequences, though, and decided that they are manageable. However, there is no photo showing you in your profile and you don't publish any spanking pictures showing you for the general public. One could argue that you could do that because people know already what you are into and how to find you. Compared to that, public pictures provide only a small risk. But you have decided that this is a limit for you. I find that legitimate as well as very smart. It's no different with Ludwig and me. And others have even stricter limits, something I find legitimate, too.

“You won't be able to prevent headlines. But you can diminish them if you aren't paralyzed by any fears! Keyword: 'I'm into BDSM – so what!' in analogy to 'I'm gay and that is fine!”

As I already said, in my opinion it is possible to reduce the risks of becoming a headline considerably. But I completely agree with you when it comes to the question of how to deal with the situation if it happens nonetheless. I already wrote that in my original post. I'm not ashamed of what I am doing here. I'm not keen on being outed, not because of my friends, most of whom know about my fetish anyway, but because of the possible consequences I described. But of course I have a plan for how to deal with it if I have to. It's just that “I'm making SM porn and that is fine!” is more difficult to sell in our society.

One final remark: I have the feeling that my post made you think that I'm permanently living in fear. I can put you at ease here, that is not the case! All I do is to take a moment from time to time to check the safety equipment for my journey and think about what might happen on my way and whether I've got the right equipment for that. That's where this post originated from. Apart from that I simply enjoy the journey. Our clip “48” has been downloaded 2,579 times so far. That doesn't make me think: “Oh no, I just hope that no one will recognize me and that I won't be outed.” What I think is: “Cool that the clip is of interest to so many people!” The same is true for the numbers of visitors on this blog. But, as you said as well:

“Of course everyone is his/her own guardian! Sure we agree about that.”

And here our safety equipment simply looks a bit different than yours or that of other spankos who might have completely different limits, a different willingness to take certain risks and a different evaluation of certain risks based on their circumstances of life. I don't want to presume the ability to say whether the safety measures of others are necessary and right or unnecessary and wrong. Whether the risk evaluations have been right or wrong can only be observed in retrospect, anyway, but I think that everyone should stick to what makes him or her feel comfortable.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

bye the way ...

@Ludwig
@Kaelah

ihr könnt mir ruhig englisch antworten, nur beim selbst formulieren fehlt mir der Wortschatz, um deutlich zu machen, was ich eigentlich sagen will. Das es da schon beim deutschen Text Missverständnisse gab muss ich nicht extra unterstreichen.

Nur beim Telefon würde ich auf deutsch bestehen. *smile* AEG aus Erfahrung gut - oder klug? Ihr versteht.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

So zum eigentlichen Thema:

Sommerloch? Denkbar aber sicher nicht attraktiv genug. Ein Blätter fühlendes Thema könnte nur die Angst schaffen.

Neid, Frust, Ärger zu 100% wahrscheinlich. Egal ob nun wegen des real ausleben oder wegen scheinbarer persönlicher Bedeutungen.

Die von euch angeführten Beispiele, habe ich wenn nur am Rand mit bekommen. Wenn ich mich aber richtig erinnere hatte das viel mit Neid und Frust zu tun.

Den zieht man sich schon zu, wenn man im Lauf der Jahre immer gut mit Spielpartnerinnen versorgt war. Oder wenn man deutlich macht, nun wirklich nicht jeden Arsch verhauen zu müssen.

Ich durfte da einige Erfahrungen sammeln. Außer Spesen nix gewesen. Mit Spesen will ich mal Ärger und Aufregung zusammen fassen.

Mittlerweile amüsieren mich Dinge, die mich vor ein paar Jahren heftig erregt haben.

Okay das hängt sicher ganz stark von meiner persönlichen Lebenseinstellung ab. Ich mag mir meine persönliche Lebensqualität nicht von Miesepetern (bin gespannt wie ihr Miesepeter übersetzt) schmälern lassen.

Es muss aber jedem klar sein, der sich in der Szene bewegt, dass es Risiken und Gefahren gibt. Die breite Masse ist allerdings wesentlich toleranter und aufgeschlossener als allgemein vermutet wird.

Das größte Risiko sind weder Bilder noch Daten. Das größte Risiko geht von den Dingen aus, die man im Chat, per private Nachricht, per E-Mail von sich gibt.

Das sind die wahren Dinge die einen verletzlich und angreifbar machen.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

Ein Thema das ein klein wenig anders ist, aber voll hier rein passt!

@Kaelah Du schreibst, ich hätte kein Foto in meinem Profil. Auf meiner Seite ist das ein klein wenig anders. Dort ist sehr wohl ein ziemlich aktuelles Bild (08.2011) das am Rande eines Treffen mit Spankingfreunden in Berlin entstanden ist. Ich habe auch kein Problem mit einem öffentlichen Bild, wie sie zum Beispiel in den Werbevideos zu sehen sind.

Als Webmaster und als jemand der sich vielleicht ein wenig besser im Netz auskennt, muss ich die Einstellungen der Software meiner Seiten so wählen, das nicht jemand ungewollt sein Bild bei Google unter Spankingfreunde wieder findet. Ich bin da etwas anders eingestellt als FB.

Natürlich mag man das ein oder andere mit Spankingfreunden teilen, aber nicht unbedingt mit allen. Deshalb gibt es auch die Möglichkeit, bestimmte Dinge nur mit Freunden (Freundesliste) teilen zu können.

Ich bin mir Gefahren durchaus bewusst und auch mir bewusst, dass nicht jeder so offen den Gefahren ins Auge schauen mag.

Und jetzt muss ich Ludwig noch ein wenig ärgern! Er wird es vermutlich mit einem Grinsen Quittieren ...

War der Hinweis, auf den Unterschied zwischen Webmaster und Darsteller die Einladung zu einem gemeinsamen Film? *grins*

Ursus Lewis said...

Wow, a lot to read here... First of all, Happy New Year Kaelah and Ludwig.

You want to know about my kinky future? Well, I don't know! I know, I will attend spanking parties and events as much as I can. I'll try to make new friends in the scene. I enjoy talking with like minded people and of course playing and I will read blogs I like (sometimes more, sometimes less) and comment if I feel like.

In this role, I feel pretty confident. I even talk with "outsiders" about my kink pretty openly. Fears? I'm not aware of any. Maybe I fear about people who'd spread wrong information about me. But I'm not nearly as exposed as you are, so there is a huge difference. I hope to find a mate within the scene one day and I hope to have as much fun time as possible.

Kaelah said...

@ Rainer:
I'll translate your comment tomorrow. Just a short quick reply: It's good to know that even though people tried to harm you, the consequences weren't too horrible! I hope it will be similar for Ludwig and me, should we ever be in that situation. Of course you are right, one should be very careful what to tell in chats and emails, and to whom!

Concerning video-making: Ludwig might indeed need some help there. Do you switch? I might have use for a second nice male bottom... ;-)

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

smile, your sure Ludwig search help?

but right I like, I love both, I am switch.

Kaelah said...

Here is the missing translation of Rainer's last German comments:

Summer slump season? Conceivable, but certainly not attractive enough. Only fear could create a topic that could fill the newspapers.

Envy, frustration, anger are 100% likely. No matter whether it's because one is living out [kinky fantasies] or because things seemingly have a personal meaning.

I barely registered the examples you cited. But if I recall it correctly, it had a lot to do with envy and frustration.

You already get that if you were well supplied with spanking partners over the years. Or if you make it clear that you don't have to spank every arse.

I was privileged to make some experiences here. Lots of anger and frustration, but no harm otherwise.

Today I'm amused by things that would have made me very angry a few years ago.

I guess that has a lot to do with my attitude towards life.

I won't let any sourpuss diminish the quality of my life (I am eager to see how you translate sourpuss).

But it must be clear to everyone who participates in the Scene that there are risks and dangers. However, the general public is generally much more tolerant and open-minded than one might assume.

The greatest risks are neither images nor personal data. The greatest risk comes from the things one reveals about oneself in chats, private messages and emails.

These are the things that really make people vulnerable.

Now to a topic that is a little different, but fully fits in here!

@ Kaelah: You write I had no photo in my profile. On my website that is a little different. There you will indeed find a fairly recent picture (08.2011) which was taken at a gathering with people from the Spankingfreunde forum in Berlin. I have no problems with a public image, as can be seen for example in the promotional videos.

As a webmaster and someone who might be a little better versed in the net, I have to choose the settings of my website so that no-one has to be afraid of accidentally finding his or her picture from the Spankingfreunde forum at Google. I'm a bit different from Facebook in that respective.

People can also choose to share certain things only with a list of friends on Spankingfreunde, and not with all users if they don't like to.

I am well aware of the dangers and I know that not everyone wants to look them in the eye as openly as I do.

And now I have to annoy Ludwig a bit! He will probably acknowledge it with a smile...

Was the note about the difference between a webmaster and a performer an invitation to make a film together? *grins*

Abel1234 said...

Such an interesting post. I debate long and hard how much to post in terms of personal information: I don't post my real name (although I disclose it fairly openly by email); I don't post my home town (although I do say the county in which I live, and it probably wouldn't be hard to deduce); I don't say exactly what I do for a living. There are no photos of my online in a kinky context (although I have considered putting some on my Fetlife profile).

But anyone who thought they knew me in vanilla life, or who wanted to unmask me, would probably be able to do so relatively easily if they were determined to do so. I've shared things like my date of birth; locations of conferences I've spoken at, and so on.

Fortunately, being outed wouldn't have too many implications for me in my personal, professional or family life - and I'm not in the least ashamed of my writing or my kink. But the degree of openness - or otherwise - is an on-going debate for me,

Emma Bishop said...

Kaelah, I think you should always ask yourself "what is the worst that can happen"? Oscar Wilde said... "There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about".

There are worst people that perform things behind closed doors...wife beaters, gamblers, drunks, serial illicit affair players and home-wreckers...and nobody cares enough to interfere. At least you are brave in your choices and doing what you enjoy and not hurting anyone else?. If anyone wants to make it their business then they are probably just jealous or scared that they have to hide their kink or sense of fun, that's how some people are. Ask them to tell you all about their own personal life and business if they ask you and see if they are whiter than white. In my experience people are usually more embarrassed than I am to talk about it. Stay true to yourselves and have all the fun in the world, how you want to, when you want to and with who you want to. It's your life and you only have one chance to enjoy it!

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

@Emma

Was du empfiehlst ist kein wirklicher Schutz minimiert aber empfindlich mögliche Risiken.

Wir die präsent in der Szene sind, durch Webseiten, Foren und blog sind zugleich auch Zielscheibe.

Wenn es zum Outing kommt, ist Angriff sicher die beste Verteidigung. Man sieht es auch gerade an der Salamitaktik unseres Bundespräsidenten. Hätte er gleich die Karten auf den Tisch gelegt, wäre das was heute noch Thema ist schon längst vergessen.

Emma Bishop said...

@Spankingfreunde.DE - I am sorry I do not speak German. I tried to translate your comment in Babelfish but it came out weird, sorry I dont understand, thank you anyway :) I will have to learn German I think!

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

@Emma
the translation here sleeps *smile*
my english ist rusty, now I ask google. And I think you understand the translation.

What you Recommend minimizes any real protection but sensitive to potential risks.

We are present in the scene, through websites, forums and blog at the same time are also targeted.

When it comes to outing, certainly the best defense is attack. You can see it even just on the salami tactics of our President*. Had he immediately placed the cards on the table, what would be the topic today is long forgotten.

*means the German Bundespräsident Mister Wulf

Kaelah said...

@ Ursus:
A Happy New Year to you as well! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for many exciting kinky experiences in 2012 and for you to find your kinky mate. :-)

@ Abel:
I assume that all (or at least most) bloggers constantly think about which things to tell about themselves and which not. In my opinion the two worst things that can happen when being outed is trouble in one's professional career and harm that can be brought to one's family. Since you don't have to be afraid of any consequences in either of the two fields, I think there is indeed no need to worry too much.

@ Emma & Spankingfreunde / Rainer:
Sorry, I have been busy doing other stuff! But I think the translation is already quite good. Maybe the first sentence is a bit hard to understand. I would translate it like this: “What you recommend doesn't offer any real protection, but it drastically minimizes the potential risks.”

@ Emma:
I know that I don't do anything that is morally wrong and I'm not ashamed of what I am doing. But many people in our society evaluate fetish and especially fetish porn differently (I don't think that the fetish really is a problem, it's the porn that could cause trouble in my point of view).

Dave Mustaine, founder of the heavy metal band Megadeth, once said the following about porn (Ludwig wrote about it in his post Metal Musings): “I'm not averse to making money. I'm not even necessarily opposed to musicians banging strippers and porn stars on the road. But I do know one thing: I don't want to be associated with porno. Toss morality out the window for a moment, and consider it purely from a business and professional standpoint. Porn is the ultimate dead end for an artist. The public is more forgiving of drug addicts and criminals than it is of those in the sex trade. Career-wise, you just don't come back from it. When you go down that road, you don't ever go mainstream again. End of story.”

I think that says a lot (I mean, we are talking about a heavy metal artist here)! The worst two possible consequences for Ludwig and me could be trouble in our professional careers and harm that could be brought to our families (especially to our future kids). And I think those two risks are quite real. So, I'm not afraid of anyone who tries to tell me that what I am doing is immoral. What I'm trying to avoid are those possible real consequences. But that does not keep me from doing what I want to do and enjoying the journey! It just makes me being cautious in some respects, which in my opinion is a good thing.

Emma Bishop said...

@Spankingfreunde.DE - Thanks, i understand now and think I am not so used to Babelfish!. I was not recommending anything, other than to not be ashamed of what we do but to always be ready with an answer for anyone who wants to start trouble. I am not sure going on the attack helps, because that could bring on more questions from other people who were just sitting back and watching in the background, which is worse.

@Kaelah - I totally agree with you about drawing a line between what we do and 'porn'. In fact I was asked a question in an online interview for a website I gave (published today - details in my own website) and I answered like this:

Question - What will you not do on film?

Answer: I always try and do tasteful stuff that is erotic and sexy. I have stripped nude for one film because it was necessary. I won't do live sex, oral sex or anything that I would see as porn. I will never be a porn actress because I trained as a real one and have too much respect for acting. Oh, and I wont ever top in a film or anywhere else, so don't ask!

I think you clearly draw that line too and are doing tasteful stuff. Thanks for replying to my comment Kaelah. I will leave it here now so I don't say too much in your already brilliant thread! Hugs x

Ludwig said...

@ Emma: I think we have to be careful to distinguish between matters of morals and matters of (personal) taste.

Whether porn is "tasteful" or "erotic" is a matter of taste, not of morals. The only thing that matters morally is that porn is produced in an ethical manner - that the performers give their free and informed consent, that no desperate poverty is being exploited, that performers are treated respectfully on the set, and so forth. This is a separate issue from the content of the porn.

Now, when it comes to the content of porn, different people have different tastes. Like you, I prefer videos that are sophisticated and artful to those that are primitive and unimaginative. Unlike you, however, I don't think that this has anything to do with nudity or with certain sexual practices like oral sex. Instead, it is a matter of how artfully or primitively this content is packaged.

Nudity and oral sex are no obstacles in principle to artful porn. For instance, I have seen some surprisingly good acting in feature porn films from the 1990s. Unfortunately, most porn today is unsophisticated "gonzo" stuff with no story and no aspirations, because it is cheap and easy to produce and because it sells just as well. But there are still counter-examples if you look for them.

I think there is a general prejudice that all porn is dumb, primitive, commercialised garbage, and that this is why people who consider themselves artists shy away from being associated with it. It isn't really a matter of morals, but of public perceptions and of being taken seriously as an artist. I think this is what Dave Mustaine was trying to articulate in the interview mentioned by Kaelah above.

Ironically, much the same "dumb shit" prejudices exist about heavy metal as well. So maybe Mustaine of all people should not give them so much credit. But he is certainly right, in my view, in describing the reality of our society and its skewered perceptions. The bottom line is, you can't be a porn star, or a heavy metal guitarist, or a football player, and be a smart person at the same time. People don't believe that.